Insatiable Incarnate

[Niarobi]

I'm new here, so mind me if this was a topic previously discussed here in the past, but I'm curious as to whether or not an Insatiable can gain an Incarnate form like a Beast can. They can meet all the prerequisites that Beasts do: Life, Legend, and 8 Lair rating. Becoming Incarnate is described as Life and Legend merging to embed their Lair into a localised embodiment of the Primordial Dream, so I wonder, since it's narratively driven, if an Insatiable could just usurp so many Lairs that they gain a Lair rating of 8 and just merge their Life and Legend into Myth, becoming their narrative in a way that reflects their Moment.

Follow-up. If the above is possible, is it also possible for Heroes to do something similar? They don't have Lairs, but they have Life and Legend, and some Heroes are known to kill so many Beasts that they run out of space for new Heroic Gifts and become virtually immortal, instead. Since even Beast Incarnate are known to have Anathema, I wonder if it's possible that there is a similar state achievable by a Hero that allows them to actually contend with a Beast Incarnate.

[johntfs]

As far as I can tell Heroes and Insatiable aren't PCs - or at least aren't meant to be PCs. In which case, go for it. If you decide that you want your Insatiable to become Incarnate, then fine. Likewise if you want a Hero to get a Lair with all that entails, also fine. They're your NPCs in your game. It's not like Onyx Path is going to send the Gamer Police after you.

In terms of the RAW, neither of those are going to be things. In terms of Lairs, Beasts are like turtles. Their Lairs are basically part of them. The Lairs might change and grow and shrink over time, but they're part of the Beast. Insatiable are more like Hermit Crabs. They might take a Lair, control it, usurp it, but eventually they abandon it because it isn't truly their. And to become Incarnate your Lair of 8 or more has to be your Lair.

As for Heroes, to really get a Lair you need a Horror, an aspect of the Primordial Dream. And Heroes only really have room for themselves within themselves.

[Niarobi]

Well, Heroes are connected to the Primordial Dream in some ways, though they just don't have a Lair. Thanks, though.

[nalak42]

Okay, so standard disclaimers about doing what you want at your table aside I'm not seeing it happening. Insatiables and Beasts could be considered similar species, but are more a case of convergent evolution. (Two dissimilar species that have evolved similar traits.)* Heroes in this analogy would probably be viewed as an adaptation that some humans possess enabling them to deal with Beasts (Note their ability to detect Beasts doesn't get tripped by Insatiables.) Basically none of them being the same would be fair grounds for dismissal of them being capable of the same feats.

With Insatiables, I feel like Incarnation doesn't fit what they are. Like an Incarnated Beast is technically meant to be a sort of solidified fear or horror. So it would be a repeated phenomenon like going into a specific forest at night has a disproportionately high number of disappearances and fatalities when compared to neighboring forests and thus its blamed on some monster that lurks the woods devouring fools who go in at night. Even if a person ignores the monster angle many would still be reluctant to go into the forest after dark because it has a reputation for that sort of phenom. An Incarnate level Insatiable I feel shouldn't be that type of rational entity. It would probably be closer to how in the States every couple years you end up with an outbreak of evil clowns menacing people. Which would probably require a different process and all that for an Insataible to undergo that kind of metamorphosis if the ST deemed it possible.

Heroes, I feel like it would be missing the point. Like a Hero is meant to be more of a better human, capable of braving the terrors and dangers of the world to do what's needed to help the people and solve the problem. So they're kind of like how in comic books you'll have characters described as "peak human condition" who are capable of things that really shouldn't be possible by human standards even if you accept them being in excellent shape.Incarnation, or a similar process, would be unfitting for what they're meant to be as it would be transcending humanity to become something else. Doesn't mean they might not get more absurd and powerful with age, but more like how Golden Age Superman's abilities were framed as things normal people can do just cranked up to absurd degrees, but not getting into the later territories where things like heat vision were involved.


*Not saying that's even close to what happened, just using it as an analogy.

[Wormwood]

My two pence I'd say Incarnation is a Begotten-specific thing (however, in accordance with 'Your Table, Your Rules', feel free to ignore this, because hey, whatever works for your table works for your table. You do you), but I don't see why there shouldn't be a similar state of achievement for Heroes or Insatiable. No Lair Rating, no problem: change the requirements, tweak what the state actually does, and voila: your own personal houseruled Ultimate Form.

Ideas: Insatiables are beings of endless hunger - make use of that. Maybe an Insatiable that manages to actually consume a Lair, and thus unretrievably delete a part of the Primordial Dream (thereby killing the Beast, of course), or maybe they devour the Horror (see above), but whatever they do, it manages to kickstart the development of their Horror Larvae/Moment in some way. Maybe they need more than one such Horror meal, maybe they'll go on a Chamber-eating spree (which is bound to have consequences galore), but ultimately, something about them changes: they're no longer (as) hungry. Similar to the Always-Hungry-Caterpillar, they change into a beautiful butterfly - if by beautiful you mean blood-curdling, and by butterfly you mean monstrosity.
What that means is up to you, but I'd crib some Incarnate stuff, throw in some unsettling bodyhorror (Merger-inspired), additional parasite-themed abilities (latching onto a Beast and stealing their Horror rather than their Lair, maybe? In doing so, leaving the Beast with all the Drawbacks of Starving and Slumbering, and taking away their access to Atavisms - I wouldn't grant the Atavisms to the Insatiable, though, unless that is the about only benefit this form gives them) and off you go.

For a Hero, you might want to restrict this state to mostly high Integrity Heroes. In any case, go mythic: bathing in the blood of a Horror in the Primordial Landscape, killing a Beast with nothing but their bare hands, forging a charm from Primordial bones they harvested from all their Horror-trophies (this is meant purely on a conceptual/metaphorical level, I don't mean literally bringing the bones into the normal world, although I guess that could work, too?), reaching Enlightenment by achieving an Avatar within the Primordial Dream that functions similarly to a Horror Form when entering a Chamber, who flickers into existence when they sleep so they can hunt while asleep as a Horror-equivalent native of the Primordial etc. etc.
What are your options here? You could bump up all their abilities by e.g. removing caps like how often a given skill can be bought (thus increasing their potential), increasing the bonuses granted through Gifts (thus giving them a massive power upgrade), adding additional Gifts inspired from Atavisms like a 'Holy Presence' that is essentially a Beast-specific Version of Plague Bearer etc. The aforementioned Avatar-state would give them more versatility and circumstantial power-boosts without a direct upgrade of permanent power, making them more of a threat without an absolute dealbreaker. Being able to place anathema on Incarnates would go entirely against the point of Incarnates lorewise, so instead maybe they gain the power to face them on equal footing, similar to how classical Heroes often faced their adversaries on common ground.
I am a huge fan of mythical weapons, so maybe instead go "This spear, bathed in the blood of a hundred monsters, has been imbued with incredible power, and if kicked at a Beast and entering their body, it sprouts barbs throughout their veins, and staying stuck" (inflicts +0 Agg on top of some conditions like Bleeding 1B per turn for a number of turns or turning off Healing, and some version of hampered movement), giving the Hero a powerful weapon that only he can fully access.
The concept of entering another realm through trance is a thing in many cultures, and since it leaves the physical body vulnerable, I feel it is justified to give it as a substantial power upgrade to a Mythical Hero.
The results on a Hero's ego and behaviour due to reaching such a level, and conflating their Life and Legend to Myth, would be immense and extreme. But maybe you can pull something here and place a Geass condition on them to raise the stakes: so long as the Hero adheres to the Terms of his Myth, he gets all the benefits, but if he fails them, he doesn't just lose them, he dies.
This could initiate an interesting dynamic at conflicts on such a high level.

[johntfs]

I went back and read some of the bits from the Hunter: the Vigil !st edition in terms of Slashers. The "boosted" form of the Avenger slasher was "The Legend." If your Legend was The Hookman, an angry man with a hook for a hand who disembowled "sluts" because they mocked him and caused him to lose his hand. One of the points of your Legend might be "The hook can rip though anything short of titanium." In which it can actually do that. Of course, if another part of the Legend was that Hook-Man is terrified by Teddy Bears, then that's a thing as well.