Beasts, Lairs, Horrors, and supernal

[Primordial newcomer]

A thought randomly came to my head. The Tenemos is ruled predominantly by the Mind Arcanum and most studied by Mastigos, yet the primordial dream, despite being shaped by the mind and part of the tenemos, is a VERY primal part of humanity, one that Thrysus mages could come to understand possibly easier than mastigos

So that got me thinking. Beasts have the ability of thinking beyond their Hungers to shape their legends, and more importantly the perceptions of humanity. They also utilize their Lairs as part of them and make them as primordial as their Horrors. Speaking of Horrors, these beings are instinctual fears brought to life by the collective unconcious of humanity. They are as simple as the truths of the primal wild and as malleable as those of Pandemonium

Now I'm no genius at Mage, I'm not even that big a fan of the game, but I do LOVE the crossover potential of the game. What I ultimately see with this little thought I had is the potential for the Supernal and the nature of the primordial dream and its inhabitants to be both strange, horrifying, and beautiful while showing that even now, with the nature of the monomyth and Lessons, Beasts are an essential part of the world that even the Platonic Supernal acknowledges

[Michael]

Sorry, but I don't understand what you're suggesting.

[Primordial newcomer]

Sorry, but I don't understand what you're suggesting.

I know, it's a mess of a post.

To simplify, I'm saying their must be some very abnormal interactions with anything relating to the Primordial dream and the Supernal. Like how the primordial dream is both shaped by the minds of humanity, yet ultimately home to the instinctual feels of it. It can all at once be alien to a Thrysus mage as it is intimately familiar with it.

[Satchel]

The Astral is easier to manage Mind spells in, but generally speaking it runs on WYSIWYG logic as far as what Arcanum affects what and the Thyrsus don't have a whole lot of trouble wrapping their heads around it; the Aeons of the Primal Wild have long been notable for their Citadel connecting to way more parts of the cosmology than a place at the edge of coherent reality has any business being, and Werewolf's general intimations about pre-Sundering cosmology through the Pangaeans and the Geryo point to a certain foundational tie between the Shadow, the Border Marches, and the heart of the world even without getting into the splat's connection to the Anima Mundi all the way back in 1e.

The observable origin point of Horrors follows a particular branch in the line of descent from spiritual reality, and it links back to things that may or may not be different faces of the Astral manifestations of the Arcana themselves. Even with the emergence of a specifically Astral-oriented gameline, the Dreamtime is still Terra Incognita for things with human perspectives. The Dream is the closest part of the Temenos to that part of reality, and that part of reality also houses beings with Real Actual Power over the physical world (albeit that power is mostly not leveraged directly) including and up to beings with whole-ass Arcanum ratings outside of the Supernal.

What I'm getting at is that while there's plenty of room for interesting plots based around interplay between the Awakened and the Begotten, "this whole situation is weird" is not likely to be the starting point for things that aren't individual weird occurrences — the Primordial Dream doesn't work differently than the rest of the Temenos for mages except in the context of Lairs, and that's a navigation problem rather than an issue of fundamental magical practices.

[Primordial newcomer]

The Astral is easier to manage Mind spells in, but generally speaking it runs on WYSIWYG logic as far as what Arcanum affects what and the Thyrsus don't have a whole lot of trouble wrapping their heads around it; the Aeons of the Primal Wild have long been notable for their Citadel connecting to way more parts of the cosmology than a place at the edge of coherent reality has any business being, and Werewolf's general intimations about pre-Sundering cosmology through the Pangaeans and the Geryo point to a certain foundational tie between the Shadow, the Border Marches, and the heart of the world even without getting into the splat's connection to the Anima Mundi all the way back in 1e.

The observable origin point of Horrors follows a particular branch in the line of descent from spiritual reality, and it links back to things that may or may not be different faces of the Astral manifestations of the Arcana themselves. Even with the emergence of a specifically Astral-oriented gameline, the Dreamtime is still Terra Incognita for things with human perspectives. The Dream is the closest part of the Temenos to that part of reality, and that part of reality also houses beings with Real Actual Power over the physical world (albeit that power is mostly not leveraged directly) including and up to beings with whole-ass Arcanum ratings outside of the Supernal.

What I'm getting at is that while there's plenty of room for interesting plots based around interplay between the Awakened and the Begotten, "this whole situation is weird" is not likely to be the starting point for things that aren't individual weird occurrences — the Primordial Dream doesn't work differently than the rest of the Temenos for mages except in the context of Lairs, and that's a navigation problem rather than an issue of fundamental magical practices.

Well, you are obviously much better versed in Mage cosmology than I am lol

I must ask though, is it unreasonable to assume the relationship between the Supernal realms and Lairs/horrors is capable of sparking a strong Obsession in even an experienced Mage?

[Satchel]

I must ask though, is it unreasonable to assume the relationship between the Supernal realms and Lairs/horrors is capable of sparking a strong Obsession in even an experienced Mage?

Capable of? Not unreasonable. Especially capable of, though, is going to come down to particulars — the thing about the Supernal Realms in 2e is that they're filters that mages use to examine the world, because they're the mystical True underpinnings of reality as interpreted through one lens of insight or another.

Like, being so built around making connections and shifting resonance as they are, one of the Begotten is probably a good source of Mysteries to latch onto, but you could say the same for any Extremely Magical Person who doesn't spend all their time in solitary hermitage, too.

[Primordial newcomer]

Capable of? Not unreasonable. Especially capable of, though, is going to come down to particulars — the thing about the Supernal Realms in 2e is that they're filters that mages use to examine the world, because they're the mystical True underpinnings of reality as interpreted through one lens of insight or another.

Like, being so built around making connections and shifting resonance as they are, one of the Begotten is probably a good source of Mysteries to latch onto, but you could say the same for any Extremely Magical Person who doesn't spend all their time in solitary hermitage, too.

You have a point. I suppose I just overestimated the relations Lairs could have with the supernal. I really need to read more Mage stuff, hopefully Fallen Worlds helps me understand better

[wyrdhamster]

To me, it was always weird that Thyrsus are based on idea of 'dreamwalker shaman' ( they literally are ported from Dreamspeakers Tradition of Mage: the Ascension - which later become their iconic Legacy in Legacies: the Ancient book ) but have Mind as weakest Arcanum. It's even more problem as with 2E outlook, Dreamborns from Astral are they natural incarnation of Path's Sight beings - being literal 'dream avatars of living planet'.

But this digression afar - yes, both Mastigos and Thyrsus Paths are most related to the Begotten kind. Mastigos as they are Astral and 'hungers and flaws related', Thyrsus as they are 'primal and predatory' part of Beasts.

[Primordial newcomer]

To me, it was always weird that Thyrsus are based on idea of 'dreamwalker shaman' ( they literally are ported from Dreamspeakers Tradition of Mage: the Ascension - which later become their iconic Legacy in Legacies: the Ancient book ) but have Mind as weakest Arcanum. It's even more problem as with 2E outlook, Dreamborns from Astral are they natural incarnation of Path's Sight beings - being literal 'dream avatars of living planet'.

But this digression afar - yes, both Mastigos and Thyrsus Paths are most related to the Begotten kind. Mastigos as they are Astral and 'hungers and flaws related', Thyrsus as they are 'primal and predatory' part of Beasts.

Thrysus, to me at least, represent a more "primal" form of Shaman. They are shamans in that they are intimately tied to the world and that all things have a life all their own. Everything has its place in the world and instincts to follow.

Mind is an open rejection to this process. It means going beyond instinct and natural cycles and letting what should be trivial (at least to the Thrysus) effect what they do. A lion does not feel pity for its prey, nor does an animal meant to be prey decide it wants revenge on a predator.

Also, arent dreamwalkers a Legacy? Like a Thrysus Legacy? Also, Satchel has told me that The Primal Wild Aeons has a surprising depth in the Astral, so that's something

[Satchel]

By way of clarity, the quote from Astral Realms:

A stand of trees embraced by a thorny hedge marks the Copse of the Primal Wild — or at least it does to many Western visitors. Others see a stagnant oasis or a stand of blue-gray bamboo. The Copse is unusual in that it extends to the Dreaming Earth and even the Shadow. The Copse is the true axis mundi: a gate to all of the worlds in the Fallen sphere.

By walking through the thickest brush or turning at a tall rock at the right time and place, a soul might bypass the Sidereal Wastes or leave the astral frame of reference entirely. Some Thyrsus know these routes, but not all; they’re normally taught as the mystery of a specific medicine society.

The Aeons of the Primal Wild change species constantly, taking shapes according to whim or to fit the symbolic tastes of visitors. Snake is a common form of the Spirit Aeon. She is larger than a whale and possesses and ever-shifting pattern of scales. The Stag of Life might also be an auroch or oryx — even a bear. Animal Masters and Shadow spirits attend the Aeons by a standing stone with a single, rude glyph, said to be a “page” from the true Stone Book.

Mages visit Stag for the secrets of healing and strength and Snake for the lore of the Shadow. Stag and Snake sometimes visit mages in other realms. It is said that of the Aeons, only Stag and Snake may roam beyond the Omphalos to guard the last currents of the Primal Wild’s vitality. They must share it with the rest of Creation, or life itself will perish.

Thyrsus and Mastigos take opposite scalar routes re: the place of personality — the Psychonauts know that people are made up of their inner demons that struggle for the driver's seat, but Ecstatics open themselves up to the wider world, and that affects their respective approaches to other worlds and Arcana.

The Thyrsus take the social approach to otherworldly interactions, which is a lot easier to do without the blanket temptation of "just override its brain-equivalent with the Do What I Want power" that the more Adversarial Path has particular affinity for.