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The Humanity of Beast: the Primordial

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

    I love it too, but damn, it's crazy how many will say "its stupid beast have Kinship" and then go "THAT MAKES NO SENSE THEY CANT HAVE KINSHIP WITH DEMON" as if suddenly kinship itself isnt dumb except in that one context

    Anyway, in my headcanon, beasts are intimately tied to humanity. the GM demons and Angels are completely separate, only manipulators of humanity. That's why kinship does not work, there is no astral tie in due to the separateness. Infernal demons already take the idea of monsters as embodiments of sin. The GM denizens are, then, alien things that humanity has near impossible difficulty in conceptualizing (and if you ever read about the Angels and demons in the bible, you start to see just how inconceivable they are).
    And honestly, this is the type of issue where one can easily house rule a Merit to provide the exception that proves the rule.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Jacob View Post

      And honestly, this is the type of issue where one can easily house rule a Merit to provide the exception that proves the rule.
      People conveniently forget homebrew is encouraged in CoD when it comes beast, I freaking swear.

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      • #63
        Eh, I'm of the opinion that G-d Machine just annoys or antagonises certain "Rank 5+" entities. Not just the Dark Mother (or Astral Beings as a whole), but the Principle and the Gentry* too. The Unchained are just collateral damage in this regard. When 'Anti-Kinship' triggers (because these demons** DO get something special), it is because the Horror recognises them not as Kin butas a foreign invading enemy to THEIR territory. I imagine a similar process in reverse if the Unchained win the dice roll, as hardwired divine protocols trigger, forcing the demon into certain reactions.
        The reasons why Beasts and the Unchained can't have nice things together at my table, is the G-d Machine

        I'm not adversed to special merits to provide exceptions, but I'm inclined to make them more specific, like one ring of demons. Like a kinship merit, though if both were PCs, I'd let both of them buy into it. But that is just me.

        *Remember how the Fae are weak to Iron because someone broke a deal with it's representative? I like to think of the G-d Machine as that rep.
        **Basically all other demons are Kin. Inferno, fiends, maljin, goetia, pandemonium, fae...


        Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

          People conveniently forget homebrew is encouraged in CoD when it comes beast, I freaking swear.

          When your game is a diamond in the rough, it's inevitable that you'll need to knock some corners off and do some polishing.

          That said, one in-universe issue that I never felt was adequately addressed is how (given the obvious utility of Mother's Kiss) Beasts avoid becoming enthralled pets to other supernatural entities? Arc's post on Lore might provide one answer, depending on how it evolves. I.e., it can be hard to maintain control of someone that is unconsciously rewriting reality around themselves (a la a Prometheanesque mechanic).

          The other issue is more purely mechanical in that the rules for Family Ties as written can be interpreted antagonistically (wrt NPCs) since successful social maneuvering inflicts the Family Ties condition on the target. If the language read more like, "a successful social maneuver results in the Beast persuading the target to accept the Family Ties condition..." it might lend itself to less...choice-removing, un-actualizing, etc. interpretations. (This kind of verbage also aligns better with the fact the PCs are allowed to choose to accept the condition or not. Something to consider if a revised/2nd ed ever occurs.)

          Also unaddressed in the overarching allegory of Kinship--sometimes things don't work. Families disintegrate, bands break up, communities split, and tribes fracture. Fact of life. Any putative future text addressing these issues are likely to be helpful. (And apologies if I have missed any such text in the Player's HB, it's been a while since I read it.)

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Jacob View Post


            When your game is a diamond in the rough, it's inevitable that you'll need to knock some corners off and do some polishing.

            That said, one in-universe issue that I never felt was adequately addressed is how (given the obvious utility of Mother's Kiss) Beasts avoid becoming enthralled pets to other supernatural entities? Arc's post on Lore might provide one answer, depending on how it evolves. I.e., it can be hard to maintain control of someone that is unconsciously rewriting reality around themselves (a la a Prometheanesque mechanic).

            The other issue is more purely mechanical in that the rules for Family Ties as written can be interpreted antagonistically (wrt NPCs) since successful social maneuvering inflicts the Family Ties condition on the target. If the language read more like, "a successful social maneuver results in the Beast persuading the target to accept the Family Ties condition..." it might lend itself to less...choice-removing, un-actualizing, etc. interpretations. (This kind of verbage also aligns better with the fact the PCs are allowed to choose to accept the condition or not. Something to consider if a revised/2nd ed ever occurs.)

            Also unaddressed in the overarching allegory of Kinship--sometimes things don't work. Families disintegrate, bands break up, communities split, and tribes fracture. Fact of life. Any putative future text addressing these issues are likely to be helpful. (And apologies if I have missed any such text in the Player's HB, it's been a while since I read it.)
            Pretty busy right but can answer the bottom portion. The thing about family is whether you hate your family or not, they ARE your family. Due to the astral and Beasts relationship to it as deep seated embodiments of primordial fears (which humanity anthropomorphized into monsters), other, lesser (depending on perspective) monsters nonetheless feel intrinsically tied to other beasts because the astral connects them subconsciously as birds of a feather (you could say it's like how Blood calls to Blood in the Kindred). In the end, no matter how hated they are as enemies, other monsters will always feel a sort of sympathetic tie to Beasts. Same as real families.

            As for the monsters CHOOSING to forego family ties, that's just a mechanical choice, same as hunters not having to take the Disquiet conditions for prometheans.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

              Pretty busy right but can answer the bottom portion. The thing about family is whether you hate your family or not, they ARE your family. Due to the astral and Beasts relationship to it as deep seated embodiments of primordial fears (which humanity anthropomorphized into monsters), other, lesser (depending on perspective) monsters nonetheless feel intrinsically tied to other beasts because the astral connects them subconsciously as birds of a feather (you could say it's like how Blood calls to Blood in the Kindred). In the end, no matter how hated they are as enemies, other monsters will always feel a sort of sympathetic tie to Beasts. Same as real families.
              Actually this turns out not to be the case. Just ask anyone disowned by or who has disowned their family. There's actually extensive family case law that formalizes the practice in a legal context...

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Jacob View Post

                Actually this turns out not to be the case. Just ask anyone disowned by or who has disowned their family. There's actually extensive family case law that formalizes the practice in a legal context...
                Still family. It does not matter how hated or how stupid family is to each other. They are still family and they can do nothing about that but give the illusion they are not.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Jacob View Post
                  That said, one in-universe issue that I never felt was adequately addressed is how (given the obvious utility of Mother's Kiss) Beasts avoid becoming enthralled pets to other supernatural entities?
                  On mobile and stuck away from my books for a couple days, but: It's always been my understanding that they mostly don't.

                  Like, being Gorged makes Beasts more susceptible to supernatural mental/emotional influence and gives them incentives to sit back and provide their boons to kin while they pick up tips on How The Apex Is Scary, but the power-retention they hold onto there is found in the fact that they still need to get fed to keep up their utilities and dropping down to Starving incentivizes them to start making trouble for people that are close to them.

                  A Beast in a subservient role to another monster is usually one who benefits from proximity to their activities and offers social/logistical gifts based on their being an unobtrusive and tractable magical amplifier with a pocket portal network -- as long as someone's hunting and the Beast doesn't have to burn off too much energy. That relationship starts to get strained once the lean times come around, and a Beast that's hungry is a Beast that's more likely to make things bad for you; would-be domitors of the Begotten either know this or don't, and test their luck by how they treat their kin.


                  Resident Lore-Hound
                  Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Jacob View Post
                    Actually this turns out not to be the case. Just ask anyone disowned by or who has disowned their family. There's actually extensive family case law that formalizes the practice in a legal context...
                    Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
                    Still family. It does not matter how hated or how stupid family is to each other. They are still family and they can do nothing about that but give the illusion they are not.
                    Oh, geez. The two of you are almost certainly going to talk past each other on a potentially touchy subject. You two obviously have different ideas about what "family" means and that needs to be cleared up.

                    I mostly lean towards Jacob's opinion, though. While the history of a family (as well as genetics, if applicable) can never be erased, you can definitely sever all ties that actually matters. In time, even emotional ties.


                    Bloodline: The Stygians
                    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Tessie View Post



                      Oh, geez. The two of you are almost certainly going to talk past each other on a potentially touchy subject. You two obviously have different ideas about what "family" means and that needs to be cleared up.

                      I mostly lean towards Jacob's opinion, though. While the history of a family (as well as genetics, if applicable) can never be erased, you can definitely sever all ties that actually matters. In time, even emotional ties.
                      I suppose it could get heated. But to me, no matter how many legal documents you sign, you will never be able to truly see someone as not family when they are.

                      But again. A touchy subject. I understand, I wont talk more into it if that's for th better

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Jacob View Post
                        That said, one in-universe issue that I never felt was adequately addressed is how (given the obvious utility of Mother's Kiss) Beasts avoid becoming enthralled pets to other supernatural entities? Arc's post on Lore might provide one answer, depending on how it evolves. I.e., it can be hard to maintain control of someone that is unconsciously rewriting reality around themselves (a la a Prometheanesque mechanic).
                        This is actually a big plot point for my current ongoing Beast: The Primordial game. In the game I'm running, I have Beasts as being rather very rare creatures to come across, which makes information about them and their abilities very scarce and difficult to come by. The big critical plot point is being driven by a Mage that discovered this capability Beasts had, kidnapped a Beast and has been experimenting with the Beast's blood to try to replicate the capability to enhance supernatural powers.

                        Now, I'm running well off into Homebrew territory for this specific plot point.... But I'm having the Mage's experiments become sorta successful and start producing small vials of a "drug" that can give other supernatural beings a quick boost, but has the little side effect of driving them into more monstrous behavior. This "drug" is going to be cropping up in several small adventures of the PCs as they're establishing themselves.

                        At some point, the Mage will screw up and lose control of the Beast (because the Mage is using the "drug" too and that side effects them too), which will end up having the captured Beast go Rampant and unleashing an insane pissed off thunderbird on the city that starts a massive (super)natural disaster in it's quest to tear the Mage into pieces.

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                        • #72
                          To be fair, absent the real world (issues? trauma?) implications, the debate would make good story fodder for a Beast game. I even mentioned this briefly in my big rant post as an example (the werewolf reject you being their Kin but you know it, what do you do?) But this is why we talk to our players about what is appropriate content for play and what should be avoided. Consent, lines, veils, etc.

                          On topic, I do like how the Family Dinner kinship ability muddies the whole 'Satiety as Morality/Monstrosity' thing. As mentioned, a Begotten is most 'human at high Satiety but has to do terrible things to stay there. Inversly, the Beast is most like their Horror at low Satiety, to the point that the literal claws start coming out (in the form of Avatisms). However, hangriness aside, the Starving have do little frightening to feed, potentially causing less harm.
                          Family Dinner makes it easier to be more human, by eating with monsters. You don't have to traumatise your neighbour so your (literal) ivory skin doesn't show IF you just help that vampire move that make out session someplace private enough that the real necking can begin.


                          Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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                          • #73
                            How does a Beast avoid becoming the enthralled pet to other supernatural creatures?

                            How the fuck does anyone avoid becoming the enthralled pet of anything? By being fucking smart when they interact with a new entity. A Beast is at no more risk than any vampire, mage, changeling, sin-eater, or demon is in their own home environment. That Beasts feel other monsters are family and metaphysically incentivized to seek them out doesn't mean they idly put their hands in wolves' mouths.


                            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                            Feminine pronouns, please.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                              How does a Beast avoid becoming the enthralled pet to other supernatural creatures?

                              How the fuck does anyone avoid becoming the enthralled pet of anything? By being fucking smart when they interact with a new entity. A Beast is at no more risk than any vampire, mage, changeling, sin-eater, or demon is in their own home environment. That Beasts feel other monsters are family and metaphysically incentivized to seek them out doesn't mean they idly put their hands in wolves' mouths.
                              Hell, the Dominae consider themselves outright superior to other monsters. I doubt they would let themselves be naive fodder for "lesser" monsters

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                              • #75
                                Following up on Family Dinner: Something that I've noted before is that Beasts are generally ill equipped to be the 'good guys' with respect to mortals. Their powers are frightening at best and immensely destructive at worst, and their constant Hunger tends to sabotage even the best intentions. Not that it can't be done, a careful Beast can play a vigilante archetype quite well, but it's an uphill battle.

                                But supernaturals? Totally different story. Beasts lack the inherent banes of other splats, allowing them to step in and deal with enemies that normally exploit those weaknesses with little fear. The buffing, radar, and portal opening powers are all useful things in a friend. And Family Dinner means Beasts don't need to exact their usual tithe of fear to provide those benefits, instead they just follow their friends to dinner. Supernaturals don't need to feed because of the Beast, they needed to feed regardless. And they may even need to feed less than they otherwise would if the Beast is handling some of the problems they would normally need magic to solve.

                                I'm not sure how I feel about it being automatic successes instead of a dice pool though. It feels easier, more palatable and more reliable, to the point that normal feeding feels like a fallback I only want to attempt if Family Dinner just isn't available.

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