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The astral ideal of monsters and its relation to hunters

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  • #31
    IMO, it's okay that the game texts are all slightly contradictory. Each game has the advantage and disadvantage of the particular point of view of its protagonist group. It'd be a little too neat and tidy if, for example, Beasts and Mages had the same view of how the Astral Realms work. Some things should remain mysteries in the larger milieu of the game universe.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by LostLight View Post
      On the other hand, we should remember that Inoue Akio is the Apex of Tokyo- and I am preety sure that in order to be an Apex, you need to be a monster, while IIRC Inoue is basically a human (maybe a ghoul, I remember it was mentioned, but I can't find a reference for it in V:tR2e), even though that again, with the Hototogisu's ability to steal things from monsters, I won't be surprised if he somehow "stole" his position, maybe as a part of the "dream quest" mentioned in Beast.
      Inoue Akio is a ghoul.

      Now, as far as the Hunter Question...

      Okay, let's go through this list:

      NOT KIN: The Long Night, Ashwood Abbey, Loyalists of Thule, Null Mysteriis, Network Zero, The Union, SWORN, Division Six*, Keepers of the Source(Except the Upper Echelon), (Unsuccessful) The Promethean Brotherhood, THe Bear Lodge, The Talbot Group, (Low scale) The Illuminated Brotherhood, The Night Angels, The Barrett Commission, Maiden's Blood Sisterhood, The Hunt Club, Heritage House, Habibti Ma, Utopia Now, Yuri's Group, The Reckoning, Ama-san, The Bijin, The Gimu(Yes, I know they didn't end up in the book), The Scarlet Watch, Les Voyageurs, Keepers of the Weave, Protectors of the Light, Followers of the Mansa, Soldiers of the Forbidden Sun, Task Force Valkyrie, Ascending Ones, Aegis Kai Doru, The Cainite Heresy**

      KIN: 5-Dot Keepers of the Source, (Successful) The Promethean Brotherhood, 3-Dot and Higher Illuminated Brotherhood, Azusa Miko, Malleus Maleficarum***, the Lucifuge, Council of Bones, The Cheiron Group, VASCU, The Feast of Shulpae, The Knights of Saint Adrian, The Merrick Institute, The Hototogisu, The Otodo****

      DEBATABLE(See **): The Knights of Saint George, Les Mysteres*****

      On a personal note, the Fundamentally Human" category strikes me as completely unnecessary.

      *Okay, so one tier of their Status increases their Paradox penalty for Vigilant Witches and the Awakened, and I'll admit that's enough of a grey space on whether that's enough to go Kin or Not. I'd wager not, but.
      **One of the big issues about the Kin/Not Kin division is a question the is under the issue of "Merely using supernatural powers without it being incorporated into their being", which is that there's plenty of instances where in simply knowing how to commit supernatural acts is enough to restructure a person into being a metaphysically significant entity, ie, a monster that qualifies as Kin. Where Hunter gets fuzzy is that, being written from their point of view, it's hard to note where knowing an Endowment is enough to change you versus just simply using. I bring this up for the Cainite Heresy because it's actually a clear post-core example where it's not a case of this-their blood sorcery is entirely dependent on things around them(The specialized vials and the entirely external rituals for their blood sorcery).
      ***It was debateable in 1st Edition, but 2nd Edition's presentation of the Malleus needing to receive a blessing from the Pope to get a hotline to heaven smacks a little too much of planting the divine (the supernatural) into the hunter in order to cast Benedictions, and that's enough for me to suggest the Hammer have been altered into being Kin, barring evidence that the "God" providing the blessings is not apart in the same way the God-Machine and the Abyss is and might be (again, text is a problem).
      ****I know Conspiracies take up a lot of space, but how is Fallen Blossoms the only Hunter Dark Era to offer up Conspiracies, seriously.
      *****On the one hand, nothing says the Rites de Cheval change them at all. On the other hand, I have trouble wrapping my head around how you can keep reverse-possessing spirits and not having that change you over time-that and Status seems to have an almost Spirit Rank-like effect when it comes to fighting off possession from powerful spirits.


      Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
      Feminine pronouns, please.

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      • #33
        It should be noted that in 2e, Endowments sounds like a much more transmutive process than in 1e. To quote-

        Originally posted by Hunter 2e Preview
        Alchemy is the art of transforming one substance into another. Truly advanced practitioners of
        the art need no laboratory or tools to perform their miracles — their own body and enlightenment
        suffices. The Ascending Ones guard the secrets of internal alchemy, for they are easily abused
        and dangerous to the uninitiated. Many elixirs are highly toxic without an alchemical touch, and
        a few may seriously harm or cause a fatal reaction.
        Elixir Endowments represent the knowledge and training needed not only to prepare the
        alchemical cocktail the hunter imbibes, but to transform the reagents within herself and redirect
        that energy as needed.
        Heck, if you use the optional Oath Stone rules for the AKD, I would argue that under those definitions, the AKD are considered to be Kin. 2e really did made things much murkier, but there are also counter points to somne of those arguments, such in the case of Benedictions. Sure, it does sound like a tranformitive process, but the fact it is also reversible would make me wonder if those powers could truly be considered to be a part of the hunter, and not "loaned' to it by some obscure entity commonly called "God".

        So yeah, Hunter complicated thingas, but what else is new?


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        • #34
          Originally posted by LostLight View Post
          It should be noted that in 2e, Endowments sounds like a much more transmutive process than in 1e. To quote-



          Heck, if you use the optional Oath Stone rules for the AKD, I would argue that under those definitions, the AKD are considered to be Kin. 2e really did made things much murkier, but there are also counter points to somne of those arguments, such in the case of Benedictions. Sure, it does sound like a tranformitive process, but the fact it is also reversible would make me wonder if those powers could truly be considered to be a part of the hunter, and not "loaned' to it by some obscure entity commonly called "God".

          So yeah, Hunter complicated thingas, but what else is new?
          It's very much it's function.

          I would argue the Oath Stone still doesn't change a hunter-it's more like a mystical RFID chip in a way more minor that the Mark of the Scythe for the Council of Bones (it's not co-integrated into your body). THe Ascending Ones alchemy though...

          ...

          Put them in the debatable category. It's quite a line to ride, but C&C also has that Cheiron implement that helps to define the lines.


          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
          Feminine pronouns, please.

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