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  • #16
    Originally posted by Neos01 View Post

    Wait, i m confused.
    I m not familiar with 1ed but i think i ve heard of a book in wich this transformation was canonized.
    Am i bad informed?
    It comes up directly in two books from 1e.

    In The Equinox Road, the Becoming Nightmare mechanics are introduced as, essentially, "once a changeling reaches Wyrd 10, it becomes possible for them to, at a time narratively agreed upon by their player and the Storyteller, begin experiencing especially vivid dreams of Arcadia both in their sleep and while awake, prompting daily breaking point rolls that imperil their Clarity; if this causes them to reach Clarity 0, they are consumed with the impulse to dive into the Hedge and return to Arcadia, where they shed the last of their humanity and become a True Fae."

    In Dancers in the Dusk, the above is abbreviated to "Reaching Wyrd 10 causes changelings to become True Fae" in a sidebar for a section of the book's Storytelling chapter discussing a rules hack wherein characters' Wyrd ratings may fluctuate wildly with any use of fae magic instead of only going up with experience purchases and down with rest.

    For some reason more people remember the latter as the core functioning of the mechanics despite its context.
    Last edited by Satchel; 07-13-2020, 06:26 PM. Reason: Autocorrect fixing.


    Resident Lore-Hound
    Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Neos01 View Post
      Well, bright and dark dream are in fact two regions of the same astral realm (also know as the Temenos), so i don t think that the distinction is so important.
      It absolutely is if it has a body count. Also, the different needs of their respective goetia and their environment's different rules demand an explanation. Please tell me you have the book so you can look this up yourself.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

        Well not completely, but somewhat I guess then. At least I know people that gave it a chance say it redeemed them in their eyes

        EDIT: And this is as far off topic as I'm going...will this be the maw part 2?
        What is a "maw"?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Excess View Post

          What is a "maw"?
          Arcane has a an essay on Beast called "to kneel before the maw" with a part 2 coming up at some point.

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          • #20
            More directly, maw is another word for mouth, usually associated with toothy animals.

            Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

            Well not completely, but somewhat I guess then. At least I know people that gave it a chance say it redeemed them in their eyes

            EDIT: And this is as far off topic as I'm going...will this be the maw part 2?
            No, unfortunately, this is ANOTHER thing I need to get straightened out before doing To Kneel Before the Maw Part 2: Baby Maws 2, unless I want another gigantic diversionary diatribe in the middle of it.

            Unlike Humanity, though, this one is more....greasing permission, rather than setting the record straight. It's also going to be a time of me actually griping about Beast.
            Last edited by ArcaneArts; 07-14-2020, 01:51 AM.


            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
            Feminine pronouns, please.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Excess View Post

              It absolutely is if it has a body count. Also, the different needs of their respective goetia and their environment's different rules demand an explanation. Please tell me you have the book so you can look this up yourself.
              I know the rules of the different layers and goetia, and i also know that heroes rarely set foot on astral realms different than lairs, and more rarely meets goetias.
              So i don t understand your doubts about considering the whole temenos as a power source.
              Sin eaters derive their haunts powers from the whole underworld, not from a region of it.
              It s not like if heroes derive their powers from bright dream, then the realm and its denizen would consider them allies

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Neos01 View Post

                I know the rules of the different layers and goetia, and i also know that heroes rarely set foot on astral realms different than lairs, and more rarely meets goetias.
                So i don t understand your doubts about considering the whole temenos as a power source.
                Sin eaters derive their haunts powers from the whole underworld, not from a region of it.
                It s not like if heroes derive their powers from bright dream, then the realm and its denizen would consider them allies
                I don't understand your last sentence, you goofed your language a little.

                As for my doubts. If it is true you have access to the information then I am surprised you haven't noticed. Afterall:

                Regular goetia get essence and don't have to interact with a particular soul. Horrors must get closer and gain satiety instead.
                Goetia follow a unique script, horrors follow hunger and have script as an afterthought.
                The Bright Dream has a highly arbitrary environment while the Primordial Dream has multiple consistent environments like the rough map of the waking world, the mists, chambers, the omphalos stone, and the cave. Each local a very mysterious phenomenon.
                The Bright Dream intrudes little on the waking world, the Primordial Dream sends Heroic calls, horrors and the insatiable.

                So many conspicuous differences. Surely you understand why I don't assume?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Excess View Post

                  I don't understand your last sentence, you goofed your language a little.

                  As for my doubts. If it is true you have access to the information then I am surprised you haven't noticed. Afterall:

                  Regular goetia get essence and don't have to interact with a particular soul. Horrors must get closer and gain satiety instead.
                  Goetia follow a unique script, horrors follow hunger and have script as an afterthought.
                  The Bright Dream has a highly arbitrary environment while the Primordial Dream has multiple consistent environments like the rough map of the waking world, the mists, chambers, the omphalos stone, and the cave. Each local a very mysterious phenomenon.
                  The Bright Dream intrudes little on the waking world, the Primordial Dream sends Heroic calls, horrors and the insatiable.

                  So many conspicuous differences. Surely you understand why I don't assume?
                  I already know this differences, and even if bright and primordial have some mechanical differences, both are regions of the same realm, the temenos.
                  As a side note remember that horrors are native of the anima mundi, not temenos, and starts following strange rules once they join with a human.
                  What i m trying to understand here is, why trying to differentiate the power source realm of heroes if they rarely interact with it?
                  Bright dream goetias would not consider heroes allies even if their powers comes from the bright dream

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                  • #24
                    Heroes are absolutely driven by fear. Chronicles of Darkness is a world of people who mostly flee or freeze in the face of the supernatural, Heroes are an empowered fight response. Thing is they're still driven to irrational action by fear. Heroes are the people who kill every single snake in their yard, even if it's a black rat snake which is completely harmless to humans and free pest control to boot. Sure, they have the guts to approach, but in terms of a healthy relationship and truly overcoming fear they aren't a patch on the naturalists who know how to relocate a snake that's somewhere it shouldn't be.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Excess View Post
                      The Bright Dream has a highly arbitrary environment while the Primordial Dream has multiple consistent environments like the rough map of the waking world, the mists, chambers, the omphalos stone, and the cave. Each local a very mysterious phenomenon.
                      Beasts naturally have very different relationships to the Bright Dream and the Primordial Dream. The Primordial Dream may appear consistent for Beasts, but the other splat who are likely to explore the Astral, aka mages, navigate the Primordial Dream and the Bright Dream identically.

                      The Mists are how Beasts experience disconnected and forgotten Chambers, but there are also disconnected and forgotten realms in the Bright Dream, with a sidebar pointing out the similarity.
                      Chambers are analogous to subrealms of the Bright Dream. Lair Traits map directly to Themes. The weird part is the process in which Chambers are created, but once created they're not that different.

                      The Omphalos Stone is how mages perceive the border between the Temenos and the Anima Mundi. It might not be possible to say whether it belongs to the Bright Dream or the Primordial Dream because Beasts doesn't seem to be able to reach it without following a mage. Instead, Beasts have the Cave as the border between the Primordial Dream and the Mother's Land, which mages might not find unless they follow a Beast.

                      Since it's possible for a mage to reach the Omphalos Stone and the Anima Mundi through what Beasts would call Bright Realms, while Beasts perceive the Bright Dream and the Cave through which they can reach the Mother's Land to be in diametrically opposed directions from the Primordial Dream, I would argue that the layout of the Astral is dependent on your perspective rather than any universal rules. Since heroes don't generally reach the Astral (unless they follow a Beast and thus would end up exploring the Astral in the same way as a Beast), whether they draw their powers from the Bright Dream or the Primordial Dream could be moot because that distinction might not exist for them in the first place.


                      Bloodline: The Stygians
                      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Neos01 View Post

                        I already know this differences, and even if bright and primordial have some mechanical differences, both are regions of the same realm, the temenos.
                        As a side note remember that horrors are native of the anima mundi, not temenos, and starts following strange rules once they join with a human.
                        What i m trying to understand here is, why trying to differentiate the power source realm of heroes if they rarely interact with it?
                        Bright dream goetias would not consider heroes allies even if their powers comes from the bright dream
                        Because the corebook explicitly says that Heroes draw power from the Primordial Dream
                        Last edited by Primordial newcomer; 07-14-2020, 01:17 PM.

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                        • #27
                          THe big thing is that The Bright Dream is more or less covered in Mage's Astral Realms, since the Temenos as presented at that time didn't account for the Primordial Dream (how could it) and in a post-Primordial world the text is easy to interpret as covering the former rather than the latter.

                          The difference between Dreamborn in the Bright and Primordial probably isn't as much of a priority so much as retooling the Dreamborn around a lot to better evoke the psychospiritual themes and forms balanced between Mage's initial presentation and Beast's injection of perspective-though if anyone wanted to argue the difference of Bright and Primordial Dreamborn as a way to introduce changes without stepping on established material for the sake of keeping it easy, I can't say that that's not incentivizing.

                          Still rather just retool the Dreamborn entirely. How, of course, is the grand question for that matter, and I don't have an answer that stands out above any of the others.


                          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                          Feminine pronouns, please.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                            THe big thing is that The Bright Dream is more or less covered in Mage's Astral Realms, since the Temenos as presented at that time didn't account for the Primordial Dream (how could it) and in a post-Primordial world the text is easy to interpret as covering the former rather than the latter.
                            I think taking this perspective would likely be giving disservice to both Mage and Beast. While I can see the appeal in not treading over covered ground before.... It's problematic in that it assumes this IS covered ground from before, and that is not necessarily the case. First, there is an issue that Astral Realms is a book from First Edition and that carries system issues from a previous edition. Second, and more importantly in my mind, Astral Realms is a book focused on the perspective of Mages.

                            This is a huge distinction in my mind, because while Beasts sometimes associate with Mages, by having terminology dictated by a perspective not your own will warp descriptions and expectations away from the perspective that should be the target audience. Namely, Beasts and their perspective of the Astral. The Mage experience with the Astral and the Beast experience with the Astral should be two very different experiences. Beasts should have their own terminology that they prefer to utilize that describes their perspective and what they experience, and this should differ greatly from what Mages perceive and experience.

                            I think this is very important for both games, because it highlights discrepancies between these two experiences, showcasing a world that is more in tune with what Beasts see and feel, while providing opportunity for the Mage experience to NOT have an assumption that they know everything, that there are examples that defy their classification and provide more opportunity for them to explore, learn about, and more importantly obsess about.

                            Beast needs to get away from Mage's clinical terminology and definitions because there's No Neat Little Boxes, as required by Beast's themes.

                            Chronicles of Darkness needs to allow for Mages to have well defined terms that fit descriptions for the Astral Realms. Chronicles of Darkness needs to allow for Beast to show murky areas of the Astral Realms where they describe "Here Be Dragons". And both need to be correct, even when one contradicts the other. The Chronicles of Darkness needs to provide options, first and foremost.

                            Now, I'm not a writer, so I'm not sure entirely how to square this circle, but it's blatant to me that relying on Mage resources for the Astral for Beast games is going to lead to people providing a Mage experience of the Astral to Beast games. I don't think that's a desirable outcome. It's taking shortcuts, and it does a disservice to both Mage and Beast as games of their own.

                            And I know Oynx Path can do a hell of a lot better than that. And should.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Paradim View Post

                              I think taking this perspective would likely be giving disservice to both Mage and Beast. While I can see the appeal in not treading over covered ground before.... It's problematic in that it assumes this IS covered ground from before, and that is not necessarily the case. First, there is an issue that Astral Realms is a book from First Edition and that carries system issues from a previous edition. Second, and more importantly in my mind, Astral Realms is a book focused on the perspective of Mages.

                              This is a huge distinction in my mind, because while Beasts sometimes associate with Mages, by having terminology dictated by a perspective not your own will warp descriptions and expectations away from the perspective that should be the target audience. Namely, Beasts and their perspective of the Astral. The Mage experience with the Astral and the Beast experience with the Astral should be two very different experiences. Beasts should have their own terminology that they prefer to utilize that describes their perspective and what they experience, and this should differ greatly from what Mages perceive and experience.

                              I think this is very important for both games, because it highlights discrepancies between these two experiences, showcasing a world that is more in tune with what Beasts see and feel, while providing opportunity for the Mage experience to NOT have an assumption that they know everything, that there are examples that defy their classification and provide more opportunity for them to explore, learn about, and more importantly obsess about.

                              Beast needs to get away from Mage's clinical terminology and definitions because there's No Neat Little Boxes, as required by Beast's themes.

                              Chronicles of Darkness needs to allow for Mages to have well defined terms that fit descriptions for the Astral Realms. Chronicles of Darkness needs to allow for Beast to show murky areas of the Astral Realms where they describe "Here Be Dragons". And both need to be correct, even when one contradicts the other. The Chronicles of Darkness needs to provide options, first and foremost.

                              Now, I'm not a writer, so I'm not sure entirely how to square this circle, but it's blatant to me that relying on Mage resources for the Astral for Beast games is going to lead to people providing a Mage experience of the Astral to Beast games. I don't think that's a desirable outcome. It's taking shortcuts, and it does a disservice to both Mage and Beast as games of their own.

                              And I know Oynx Path can do a hell of a lot better than that. And should.
                              WHile there are a few points to quibble on, I will own that this is fair and my angle of attack is misplaced in the earlier statement.


                              Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                              Feminine pronouns, please.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Paradim View Post

                                I think taking this perspective would likely be giving disservice to both Mage and Beast. While I can see the appeal in not treading over covered ground before.... It's problematic in that it assumes this IS covered ground from before, and that is not necessarily the case. First, there is an issue that Astral Realms is a book from First Edition and that carries system issues from a previous edition. Second, and more importantly in my mind, Astral Realms is a book focused on the perspective of Mages.

                                This is a huge distinction in my mind, because while Beasts sometimes associate with Mages, by having terminology dictated by a perspective not your own will warp descriptions and expectations away from the perspective that should be the target audience. Namely, Beasts and their perspective of the Astral. The Mage experience with the Astral and the Beast experience with the Astral should be two very different experiences. Beasts should have their own terminology that they prefer to utilize that describes their perspective and what they experience, and this should differ greatly from what Mages perceive and experience.

                                I think this is very important for both games, because it highlights discrepancies between these two experiences, showcasing a world that is more in tune with what Beasts see and feel, while providing opportunity for the Mage experience to NOT have an assumption that they know everything, that there are examples that defy their classification and provide more opportunity for them to explore, learn about, and more importantly obsess about.

                                Beast needs to get away from Mage's clinical terminology and definitions because there's No Neat Little Boxes, as required by Beast's themes.

                                Chronicles of Darkness needs to allow for Mages to have well defined terms that fit descriptions for the Astral Realms. Chronicles of Darkness needs to allow for Beast to show murky areas of the Astral Realms where they describe "Here Be Dragons". And both need to be correct, even when one contradicts the other. The Chronicles of Darkness needs to provide options, first and foremost.

                                Now, I'm not a writer, so I'm not sure entirely how to square this circle, but it's blatant to me that relying on Mage resources for the Astral for Beast games is going to lead to people providing a Mage experience of the Astral to Beast games. I don't think that's a desirable outcome. It's taking shortcuts, and it does a disservice to both Mage and Beast as games of their own.

                                And I know Oynx Path can do a hell of a lot better than that. And should.
                                100% agree. It would be a shame if the splats all had near the same experience of certain realms, especially with the contrast that Beast could have with mages, what with being "native" to it. It would also add to Changeling too

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