Heroes and the Dream.

[Excess]

I already know this differences, and even if bright and primordial have some mechanical differences, both are regions of the same realm, the temenos.
As a side note remember that horrors are native of the anima mundi, not temenos, and starts following strange rules once they join with a human.
What i m trying to understand here is, why trying to differentiate the power source realm of heroes if they rarely interact with it?
Bright dream goetias would not consider heroes allies even if their powers comes from the bright dream

I doubt that. For one thing the player's guide refers to horrors as the true natives of the Primordial Dream even as it explains their origins. While some call them inhuman I call them prehuman. Humanity emerges from the elements and nature as the individual emerges from the collective. Player's guide says only humanity is broken enough to have a separate dream. The ecstatic wind seems to scrub away humanity specifically, so maybe that is why there is a boundary stone. If the Horrors are not natives then the Primordial Dream is barren.

As for hero interaction with the astral being rare, it simply isn't. All heroic traits derive from the Dream and change it in turn. That a hero spends most of her time in the physical is a null point for the most part. We don't see the Bright Dream making great changes in reality like mage: the ascension or taking the initiative, but we do see that with the Primordial Dream in the form of Beasts and the monomyth. I won't pretend to know why this is, but I know enough to hesitate conflating the Dreams for any reason.

[Excess]

Beasts naturally have very different relationships to the Bright Dream and the Primordial Dream. The Primordial Dream may appear consistent for Beasts, but the other splat who are likely to explore the Astral, aka mages, navigate the Primordial Dream and the Bright Dream identically.

The Mists are how Beasts experience disconnected and forgotten Chambers, but there are also disconnected and forgotten realms in the Bright Dream, with a sidebar pointing out the similarity.
Chambers are analogous to subrealms of the Bright Dream. Lair Traits map directly to Themes. The weird part is the process in which Chambers are created, but once created they're not that different.

The Omphalos Stone is how mages perceive the border between the Temenos and the Anima Mundi. It might not be possible to say whether it belongs to the Bright Dream or the Primordial Dream because Beasts doesn't seem to be able to reach it without following a mage. Instead, Beasts have the Cave as the border between the Primordial Dream and the Mother's Land, which mages might not find unless they follow a Beast.

Since it's possible for a mage to reach the Omphalos Stone and the Anima Mundi through what Beasts would call Bright Realms, while Beasts perceive the Bright Dream and the Cave through which they can reach the Mother's Land to be in diametrically opposed directions from the Primordial Dream, I would argue that the layout of the Astral is dependent on your perspective rather than any universal rules. Since heroes don't generally reach the Astral (unless they follow a Beast and thus would end up exploring the Astral in the same way as a Beast), whether they draw their powers from the Bright Dream or the Primordial Dream could be moot because that distinction might not exist for them in the first place.

Your response prompted me to reread the material to double check, and on some points you are simply wrong.

The mists for starters. Even without encountering any chambers for days they stretch on, so simply saying that the mists are how Beasts perceive lost chambers may be true but deceptively reductive. Yes, I read the sidebar, but similarity is not confirmation. So mists may be unique to the Primordial Dream. As for the chambers being similar to subrealms in the Bright Dream, no. Physically real lair traits, Primordial pathways, eventual migration to the mists and the power to enable the devouring and lair building. That difference is too great to accurately call "not that different".

As for the omphalos stone, I was surprised to realize that Beasts find an endlessly high edifice instead. You are wrong on the other points though. I read the book again: mages do find "tunnels" that provide access to Dreamtime, but how different the experience is was not elaborated on. Mages do find the Primordial Dream on their own, exploring the area close to the boundary stone reveals it.

It may have been confirmed that mages can go from the Temenos to the Boundary Stone, but it is an unjustified assumption that they go directly from the Bright Dream to to the Stone. The layout of the astral is subjective, but lairs and the mother's land forces an objective environment.

[Excess]

Wow, I feel like a highly technical nerd.

[ArcaneArts]

Wow, I feel like a highly technical nerd.

It's a phase, you get out of it.

[Neos01]

I doubt that. For one thing the player's guide refers to horrors as the true natives of the Primordial Dream even as it explains their origins. While some call them inhuman I call them prehuman. Humanity emerges from the elements and nature as the individual emerges from the collective. Player's guide says only humanity is broken enough to have a separate dream. The ecstatic wind seems to scrub away humanity specifically, so maybe that is why there is a boundary stone. If the Horrors are not natives then the Primordial Dream is barren.

As for hero interaction with the astral being rare, it simply isn't. All heroic traits derive from the Dream and change it in turn. That a hero spends most of her time in the physical is a null point for the most part. We don't see the Bright Dream making great changes in reality like mage: the ascension or taking the initiative, but we do see that with the Primordial Dream in the form of Beasts and the monomyth. I won't pretend to know why this is, but I know enough to hesitate conflating the Dreams for any reason.

What is your doubt?
If it s the fact that primordial and bright dream are different parts of the same realm (temenos), beast core book is explicit about that.
But i see that you consider horrors as native of primordial dream even if they are born in anotger realm.
Surely they are prehuman, as they represent a concept shared by humans and animals.
But in the case of humans, we try to rationalize fear using stories, and by doing so we invite horror in the Temenos through the Cave.
The Primordial dream truly are barren, because all human fears are only instinctive fears that takes on another shape through stories.

About the heroes power source i see you have your motives to think it works that way, so i ll not try to change your mind.
But, as you have beast player guide, i ll point to you the chapter about the inverted beast.
It says that to obtain info to build an anathema, the beast must journey to the bright dream.
My interpretation of this is that if the anathema inflicting power doesn t derive from a connection with the bright dream, it must derive from a connection with both realms.

[Dave Brookshaw]

Beast needs to get away from Mage's clinical terminology and definitions because there's No Neat Little Boxes, as required by Beast's themes.

Chronicles of Darkness needs to allow for Mages to have well defined terms that fit descriptions for the Astral Realms. Chronicles of Darkness needs to allow for Beast to show murky areas of the Astral Realms where they describe "Here Be Dragons". And both need to be correct, even when one contradicts the other. The Chronicles of Darkness needs to provide options, first and foremost.

Now, I'm not a writer, so I'm not sure entirely how to square this circle, but it's blatant to me that relying on Mage resources for the Astral for Beast games is going to lead to people providing a Mage experience of the Astral to Beast games. I don't think that's a desirable outcome. It's taking shortcuts, and it does a disservice to both Mage and Beast as games of their own.

And I know Oynx Path can do a hell of a lot better than that. And should.

Well, yes. That's why Beasts draw the boundary lines differently (the Bright Dream isn't the Temenos - it's the non-fear parts of the Temenos plus the Oneiros), rename things (The Mother's Land for the Dreaming Earth) and ignore others (mages enter the Anima Mundi through the Swath or the Spire, Beasts go straight to the Dreaming Earth and don't seem to see a difference between it and the Sideral Wastes). The regretful part is that it took until the Player's Guide to do it, while Beast's corebook just uses mages' terms.

Neither splat is incorrect. Mage has never pretended that the experiences of mages in the Astral aren't essentially created by their meditative, gradual method of entry. They turn everything into a journey, and the astral into onion-layers of progress. Beasts are more holistic in one sense but wonderfully myopic in another and assume the whole Astral revolves around them.




Incidentally, while much has been said in this thread about Mage not accounting for the Primordial Dream because Astral Realms was a 1e book.. Y'all ignoring the 2e corebook, written while Beast was in production, which *does*.

"As a mage rises through the Temenos, cultural skin flakes
off collective ideas until she reaches the border of the Anima
Mundi, the Omphalos or Boundary Stone: the liminal realm
of High Speech that represents the highest form of human language.
From here, mages can either travel through tunnels in
the stone into the Anima Mundi, or skirt its edge to walk into
the Primordial realms containing humanity’s essential emotions
and fears. These realms, representing the animal instincts of
the human race, are poorly understood. Their inhabitants are
typically monstrous and highly protective of their territory."

I mean come on, people. We even used the word "Primordial".

[Paradim]

I guess what I'm considering as a takeaway for differentiating the experiences of the Astral between Mages and Beasts... Is that I should focus on Mages experiencing the Astral as a more linear path (for loose definition of "linear") as a set of waypoints that can require checks or trials before proceeding further to their destination... Which emphasizes exploration, testing, and building of understanding before reaching a new set of challenges or plateau of awareness. Meanwhile, I should focus on Beasts experiencing the Astral as more of... A range of territories, I guess, that they can move forward through intent and general direction (ie: towards the light or towards the dark). I guess I could interpret access to other subrealms as being overcome through the use of Skeleton Key...

In comparison between the two, I guess that can really emphasizes stark differences between a Mage and a Beast, where a Mage has to struggle and achieve to progress their journey (which can be costly sacrifice or rewarding), Beasts are more roaming entities that seem capable of going where they please, potentially showing up in unexpected places or able to access areas Mages would have greater issues reaching...

That sound reasonable?


Edit : maybe this should be a different thread...

[Excess]

What is your doubt?
If it s the fact that primordial and bright dream are different parts of the same realm (temenos), beast core book is explicit about that.
But i see that you consider horrors as native of primordial dream even if they are born in anotger realm.
Surely they are prehuman, as they represent a concept shared by humans and animals.
But in the case of humans, we try to rationalize fear using stories, and by doing so we invite horror in the Temenos through the Cave.
The Primordial dream truly are barren, because all human fears are only instinctive fears that takes on another shape through stories.

About the heroes power source i see you have your motives to think it works that way, so i ll not try to change your mind.
But, as you have beast player guide, i ll point to you the chapter about the inverted beast.
It says that to obtain info to build an anathema, the beast must journey to the bright dream.
My interpretation of this is that if the anathema inflicting power doesn t derive from a connection with the bright dream, it must derive from a connection with both realms.

What is my doubt? The Bright and Primordial Dreams are so different that if I didn't know better then I would believe that they were as separate as the Dreaming Roads in changeling 2nd edition. I thought I had explained this already, but if you still don't get it then I don't know what to say. I read the player's guide, which is describing horrors as the the true natives so it is not just my "consideration".

That an inversion requires that a journey into the Bright Dream takes place surprises me. Perhaps there is a case for some of a hero's power to come from the Bright Dream, but I ask you, do most of the people who believe for sure that there is a connection and that the principle source is the Bright Dream understand and know that? Perhaps a case of "somewhat right for the wrong reasons"?

[Primordial newcomer]

What is my doubt? The Bright and Primordial Dreams are so different that if I didn't know better then I would believe that they were as separate as the Dreaming Roads in changeling 2nd edition. I thought I had explained this already, but if you still don't get it then I don't know what to say. I read the player's guide, which is describing horrors as the the true natives so it is not just my "consideration".

That an inversion requires that a journey into the Bright Dream takes place surprises me. Perhaps there is a case for some of a hero's power to come from the Bright Dream, but I ask you, do most of the people who believe for sure that there is a connection and that the principle source is the Bright Dream understand and know that? Perhaps a case of "somewhat right for the wrong reasons"?

Yeah, Horrors, while made in proto from in the Mothers Land, truly become Horrors in the Primordial Dream. As for the Bright Dream and Inversion, well I consider that unique to the Inheritance and so the Beast can separate herself from the Horror so she can actually subject it to her will.

Besides. I dont remember if Corebook or Players guide, but it LITERALLY says that Heroes draw from the same source of power for Anathema, the Primodial Dream

[Neos01]

What is my doubt? The Bright and Primordial Dreams are so different that if I didn't know better then I would believe that they were as separate as the Dreaming Roads in changeling 2nd edition. I thought I had explained this already, but if you still don't get it then I don't know what to say. I read the player's guide, which is describing horrors as the the true natives so it is not just my "consideration".

That an inversion requires that a journey into the Bright Dream takes place surprises me. Perhaps there is a case for some of a hero's power to come from the Bright Dream, but I ask you, do most of the people who believe for sure that there is a connection and that the principle source is the Bright Dream understand and know that? Perhaps a case of "somewhat right for the wrong reasons"?

Maybe i don t get it, but it seems to me that one of the beast core book writers has almost given the answer to one question (because if "the Bright Dream isn't the Temenos - it's the NON-FEAR parts of the Temenos plus the Oneiros", then what are the FEAR parts of the Temenos? Maybe the Primordial dream?).
But if this isn t enough for you i ll point to you another clue i ve found in the player s guide.
Beasts have an homing sense for their lair, that works in all the astral regions and only in the astral regions.
To me this means that beasts are linked to the Astral realm as a whole, and that their power source is the WHOLE astral realm (and i ve made the sin eater ecample because even if the Underworld has lots of regions with a lot of differences, the power source of their Haunts is considered the WHOLE Underworld).
If you consider things in that way you could say with no contradictions that Heroes and Beasts have both the same power source: the Astral realm.
As for why the guide use the word "native" for creatures that it states as been born in a different region in the same book, i m not sure, maybe it shows the point of view of Beasts who don t know the whole truth.

Now i can accept that you don t consider the Primordial dream as part of the Temenos, it s a valid point of view.
What i cannot accept is the fact that you are considering dumb people that don t think that the differences between the primordial dream and other astral regions are enough to qualify it as a different, non Astral realm.
And that s all, nothing more to add, thanks for your time if you have readed the whole post.

[Primordial newcomer]

Maybe i don t get it, but it seems to me that one of the beast core book writers has almost given the answer to one question (because if "the Bright Dream isn't the Temenos - it's the NON-FEAR parts of the Temenos plus the Oneiros", then what are the FEAR parts of the Temenos? Maybe the Primordial dream?).
But if this isn t enough for you i ll point to you another clue i ve found in the player s guide.
Beasts have an homing sense for their lair, that works in all the astral regions and only in the astral regions.
To me this means that beasts are linked to the Astral realm as a whole, and that their power source is the WHOLE astral realm (and i ve made the sin eater ecample because even if the Underworld has lots of regions with a lot of differences, the power source of their Haunts is considered the WHOLE Underworld).
If you consider things in that way you could say with no contradictions that Heroes and Beasts have both the same power source: the Astral realm.
As for why the guide use the word "native" for creatures that it states as been born in a different region in the same book, i m not sure, maybe it shows the point of view of Beasts who don t know the whole truth.

Now i can accept that you don t consider the Primordial dream as part of the Temenos, it s a valid point of view.
What i cannot accept is the fact that you are considering dumb people that don t think that the differences between the primordial dream and other astral regions are enough to qualify it as a different, non Astral realm.
And that s all, nothing more to add, thanks for your time if you have readed the whole post.

I dont think any of us are saying the primordial dream isnt the astral. It's just that Beasts AND heroes draw power SPECIFICALLY from the primordial dream. The fact Beasts can sense their Lair only speaks of its status as a beacon as much as a home for Beast

[Dave Brookshaw]

This is, as far as I know, not Canon, but something another writer who'd never worked on Beast came up with randomly while talking shop:

Consider Heroes as "Fear of Self".

[Paradim]

This is, as far as I know, not Canon, but something another writer who'd never worked on Beast came up with randomly while talking shop:

Consider Heroes as "Fear of Self".

Huh... The fear of one's own darker impulses, with a denial of them that leads to them rejecting such desires and hate those who acknowledge them because they see a reflection of themsleves?

....would make a lot of sense....

[Primordial newcomer]

This is, as far as I know, not Canon, but something another writer who'd never worked on Beast came up with randomly while talking shop:

Consider Heroes as "Fear of Self".

Hmm. Admittedly, I never read the dark eras that discuss Heroes when they were Oracles but, perhaps they are fear of self because Anathema. They have the ability for your self to betray you. If taken internally, it's their own fear that they are not lich different from the Beasts they fight

[ArcaneArts]

This is, as far as I know, not Canon, but something another writer who'd never worked on Beast came up with randomly while talking shop:

Consider Heroes as "Fear of Self".

Hrm. It has merit.

I'd probably pitch Heroes more as Fear of Fear, personally. Roosevelt was full of crap with that line.