Heroes and the Dream.

[Excess]

When going through this forum I came to a surprising disagreement. I would have simply addressed it as a singular post but lo and behold it is everywhere.

I don't think the Heroes derive their powers from the Bright Dream. The corebook said it came from the same source as Beasts whose purview does not include the Bright Dream. Courage only makes sense in the context of fear so the whole concept would have to be in the same region as Beasts. They are apart of the same monomyth.

If you think I misunderstand something correct me now so I can be apart of the conversation.

[Neos01]

Well, bright and dark dream are in fact two regions of the same astral realm (also know as the Temenos), so i don t think that the distinction is so important.

[Demigod Beast]

Courage isn't the absense of fear, but rather the overcoming of fear. That sounds like the most positive and uplifting of things, to overcome fear. It's not remotely the same as what Beasts draw power from.

[Primordial newcomer]

I thought the corebook and players guide makes it abundantly clear that they draw power from the primordial dream?

[ArcaneArts]

Correct Excess, there's no explicit text saying that Heroes draw from the Bright Dream.

...

There's no sarcasm there, you're just right.

Courage isn't the absense of fear, but rather the overcoming of fear. That sounds like the most positive and uplifting of things, to overcome fear. It's not remotely the same as what Beasts draw power from.

1) You make it sound like the primal instincts that help to drive a person past their fear is somehow not involved in the Primordial Dream.

Your animal self is the one that draws the strength run through the wreckage and lift a car off your kid.

2) Boy Howdy do I need to have that discussion on Heroes.

There's overcoming fear, and then there's Heroes' unhealthy relationship with it.

[Primordial newcomer]

What incident led to this thread? Honest question excess, I don't remember anyone saying Heroes got their powers from the Bright Dream

[ArcaneArts]

What incident led to this thread? Honest question excess, I don't remember anyone saying Heroes got their powers from the Bright Dream

While I'm not Excess, I will note that the point they bring up has popped up in a variety of threads whenever the discussion comes up.

Most of the time it's not worth commenting on, but it has become a pervasive enough layer of fanon that can threaten to distract from the conversation when it matters.

[SomethingFishy]

So, I think this misconception is due to the language consistently used to describe the respective Dreams. The Primordial Dream is an ocean, and the Bright Dream is the dappled light refracting through its surface. Proto-beasts dream deep. They are nightly plunged into the depths of the Primordial Dream, washing ashore, shipwrecked, but wiser, every morning. Heroes [and proto-heroes] merely touch the surface. They see only the fins, wakes, and waves, suggesting they're not properly submerged. If they wanted to, they could reach up and still touch the sky.

But that's not really true, is it? In fact, it is probably likely they serve as a bridge between the Primordial Dream and the rest of the Temenos, just as Beast's Horrors are bridges between the Anima Mundi and Temenos. Heroes were, after all, the original interpreters of the Begotten's actions, so their position on the border of the Dreams makes an amount of sense.

Now, how much of a Hero's might is the result of the Bright Dream reshaping the Primordial Dream is a different question. After all, Heroes couldn't always do some of the things they are capable of now. Certain ideas needed to be popularized, first.

[As an aside, I want to add that I don't personally see a substantial difference between a proto-beast and proto-hero, just different responses to the same dreaming call.]

[Primordial newcomer]

While I'm not Excess, I will note that the point they bring up has popped up in a variety of threads whenever the discussion comes up.

Most of the time it's not worth commenting on, but it has become a pervasive enough layer of fanon that can threaten to distract from the conversation when it matters.

Ahh ok. Kinda like the amount of people thinking Changelings turn to True Fae thinking its canon

[ArcaneArts]

Ahh ok. Kinda like the amount of people thinking Changelings turn to True Fae thinking its canon

Mostly-that example has gotten a lot more notable waves made because it's more directly associated with a lot of troubled readings (some of which are actually very good points, which is WHY Becoming Nightmare was optional) and very panicky and/or very obnoxious readers that required it to be addressed head-on.

Heroes being Bright Dream-associated has never really rocked the boat for most discussions around Heroes because the metaphysics of them actually being associated with the Primordial Dream is kind of an "Eh" thing when most of the arguments about Heroes has been more on the thematic/ethical/moral/message level of argument.

[Primordial newcomer]

Mostly-that example has gotten a lot more notable waves made because it's more directly associated with a lot of troubled readings (some of which are actually very good points, which is WHY Becoming Nightmare was optional) and very panicky and/or very obnoxious readers that required it to be addressed head-on.

Heroes being Bright Dream-associated has never really rocked the boat for most discussions around Heroes because the metaphysics of them actually being associated with the Primordial Dream is kind of an "Eh" thing when most of the arguments about Heroes has been more on the thematic/ethical/moral/message level of argument.

That makes sense. Well thanks for taking the time to answer, I never came across (or just never noticed) this issue before now

And speaking of the ethical stuff with Heroes, I'm happy that most of that has gone down, especially when Conquering Heroes came out

[ArcaneArts]

That makes sense. Well thanks for taking the time to answer, I never came across (or just never noticed) this issue before now

And speaking of the ethical stuff with Heroes, I'm happy that most of that has gone down, especially when Conquering Heroes came out

It actually hasn't.

AND I'm probably going to brush the hornet's nest sometime in the next two weeks.

[Neos01]

Ahh ok. Kinda like the amount of people thinking Changelings turn to True Fae thinking its canon

Wait, i m confused.
I m not familiar with 1ed but i think i ve heard of a book in wich this transformation was canonized.
Am i bad informed?

[ArcaneArts]

Wait, i m confused.
I m not familiar with 1ed but i think i ve heard of a book in wich this transformation was canonized.
Am i bad informed?

Unless I'm misremembering the 2nd Edition Core (which I doubt, but not enough to outright dismiss it), it was never canonized.

[Primordial newcomer]

It actually hasn't.

AND I'm probably going to brush the hornet's nest sometime in the next two weeks.

Well not completely, but somewhat I guess then. At least I know people that gave it a chance say it redeemed them in their eyes

EDIT: And this is as far off topic as I'm going...will this be the maw part 2?