Scion: Dragon is like Beast: Primordial?

[wyrdhamster]

For Chronicles of Darkness fans - Scion: Dragon, from my reading of Introduction preview, seems a lot like Beast: Primordial, minus problematic elements of it. ( Hungers, teaching 'Lessons', all those stuff. )

Here is Kickstarter for it - and preview manuscript for only 5$ support

[Second Chances]

It's really not. If there is a CofD analogy to Dragon, it's Demon since both are firmly in the espionage genre, and even that is a stretch.

[wyrdhamster]

So, let’s analyse BtP setting elements and their answers in Dragon:

1. Ancient monsters in human body – Simply Heirs of Dragon, like Begotten to Horrors.
2. Connects to dream-memory realm of universe – Heirs are connected to Draconic Memory that remembers the literal World that is not now. Also, Dragons connect to Heirs by dreams.
3. Worship First Monster mother figure – ‘The Draq Flight is comprised of those who rallied behind the great Tiamat, a giant and glorious Dragon who claimed to be first among them all. They called the great queen Mother and followed her lead into battle against the Gods who sought to bring them low. Tiamat led each battle the Draq waged against the Gods herself, relentless in her fury against the young Fate-benders who threatened her children. It took Marduk, reportedly one of her own children turned against her by the Gods’ treachery and Fatebindings, to kill her. Her remaining children went into hiding, collecting other Dragons who were as bent on revenge as they were to fill in the Flight over time. Now they seek to sew chaos as revenge consumes each of them.’

[Heavy Arms]

So, basically, like was already said, this is a huge stretch at best. Maybe go to the WtA subforum and talk about how Scion: Dragon could be used with the Mokole (you know, the Fera with actual dragon memories as a thing)?

[Stupid Loserman]

It's also not a shock that two books that both began as attempts to write a game around playing as dragons in a setting with urban fantasy influences might have some things in common.

There's little to connect Draconic Memory and the Primordial Dream from what I can see, though. Dreams and memories are not the same central thing.

[nalak42]

So, let’s analyse BtP setting elements and their answers in Dragon:

1. Ancient monsters in human body – Simply Heirs of Dragon, like Begotten to Horrors.
2. Connects to dream-memory realm of universe – Heirs are connected to Draconic Memory that remembers the literal World that is not now. Also, Dragons connect to Heirs by dreams.
3. Worship First Monster mother figure – ‘The Draq Flight is comprised of those who rallied behind the great Tiamat, a giant and glorious Dragon who claimed to be first among them all. They called the great queen Mother and followed her lead into battle against the Gods who sought to bring them low. Tiamat led each battle the Draq waged against the Gods herself, relentless in her fury against the young Fate-benders who threatened her children. It took Marduk, reportedly one of her own children turned against her by the Gods’ treachery and Fatebindings, to kill her. Her remaining children went into hiding, collecting other Dragons who were as bent on revenge as they were to fill in the Flight over time. Now they seek to sew chaos as revenge consumes each of them.’

Yeah not really. While some Heirs are Dragons reincarnated its not the norm by far. While some flights do revere a specific dragon that is tied to, or important to the ideals that the flight was created with, it isn't an absolute for each flight nor do Dragons all view themselves as originating a singular ancestor. And it also doesn't really have much to do with Heirs.
The dream thing is an occasional thing, but far from the only option or even a default as, in that same section we have an Heir of Nidhogg just getting memories shoved into her head when she picked up a thing.

Yes, this wouldn't be the hardest transfer/adaptation in the world should you wish to do this. (Though based on a different thread I suspect Beghotten may map slightly easier to the Scions of Mythos than the Heirs.) However, saying "Its Beast without the problematic" only works if you're writing off everything from theme, premise, to function as problematic.

[wyrdhamster]

There's little to connect Draconic Memory and the Primordial Dream from what I can see, though. Dreams and memories are not the same central thing.

However, Deeper Astral - that Beasts explore by Player’s Guide - is much more about Memories than about Dreams...

[ArcaneArts]

However, Deeper Astral - that Beasts explore by Player’s Guide - is much more about Memories than about Dreams...

Yes and No.

The Astral Realms, as the collective manifestations of the soul of everything, is fundamentally about the things that make up the Self, starting with existence and working it's way downward/upward/inward/outward towards extraneous individuals with illusions of individuality. Memories, both on an individual and a collective level, do necessarily contribute to that constitution of self, but to suggest that the Astral is more about memoires is to ignore how forward forward projection and deviant conceptions of the present (dreams and nightmares of what a person could be, wants to be, and can never be, to bring it it down to earth) contributes just as much to the self as the past of any given entity in the cosmos.

Anyways, Scion and Beast are interestingly related games in general, so it's not too surprising to hear that Dragon looks similar* to Beast, but It's important to note that Beast directly tackles many of the horrific aspects of the mythic mindset in a way that Scion may not ignore but also can't focus on. Scion can be critical about myths and mythmakers, but is still ultimately celebratory and indulgent for and of it's mythmakers.

Beast, meanwhile, is all about how would-be mythmakers are assholes and the problems that come with trying to be a Big Deal. Beast is an iconoclast of mythos and generally pessimistic about ideology makers and movers in a way Scion could never be without being hypocritical. It's "problems" are part of the point it's making.

*for various reasons, I've not yet backed Dragon and read it, and I'll probably actually get into that content when it releases in DTRPG rather than through the kickstarter, so.

[Eternal Darkness]

The two are completely unalike in any meaningful way. And your premise that the things which make Beasts compelling characters are 'problematic' is purely a personal opinion. One I vigorously disagree with. Beast without hungers sounds like playing superheroes and if i want that, i'll play Deviant (Which i do).

[nalak42]

So just because I brought it up previously, out of curiosity, and a minor desire for this thread to not be entirely based on telling someone why and/or how they're wrong, how well do you think a Mythos Scion would map to a Beghotten?

[wyrdhamster]

Joka Flight is all about sating psychological Hungers, like Begotten at large:
'Now all those who feel this hunger are called Joka. Dragons all over The World hunger, but none like those of the Joka Flight. It isn’t a physical hunger for food so much as a metaphysical hunger for more power and an existential desire for what they have lost. They may consume physical objects, but they just as much consume knowledge, power, and lives in the hopes of regaining a modicum of their carefree lives slipping through time.'

[reaperfrost8]

So just because I brought it up previously, out of curiosity, and a minor desire for this thread to not be entirely based on telling someone why and/or how they're wrong, how well do you think a Mythos Scion would map to a Beghotten?

Not that much I think, Mythos monster's in general aren't really connected or care about humanity in any way and are in general free to avoid or ignore them.

Compared to regular Beasts who do have interact with humanity and do have to care about what humans regularly do especially seeing as it affects the primordial dream as well. One thing that is quite similar in my opinion is that similar to Beasts the Mythos pantheon has no connection or ties to any real-world pantheon and are free to create whatever bonds or relationships they want without any baggage.