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Arcane and Cinder Reread The Beast Corebook

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    Beast has a feeding system, but no obvious driving force for engaging with it. Yeah, you could attract heroes that requires spending Satiety to defeat, but that's hardly an interesting core loop. I see no carrot like in Mage unless the player specifically choose to chase one of the given Inheritances. There's no default setting elements to interact with like in Vampire, nor is there a framework for building up any such elements of your own design like in Deviant. If I were to try to ST this game, I would be at a complete loss when deciding what the driving force of the campaign would be and have trouble building up any kind of social network of NPCs. I could be completely reactive to the PCs and improvise, but without a main goal to work towards players themselves tend to become completely reactive so that wouldn't work.
    Same here. If I were to ST Beast, I would have no ideas what kind of story concepts to come up with. Even as a player, there are a couple of things I would be looking forward to: expanding my Lair, developing Kinship, aiming for Inheritance. But that's hardly enough to fill a whole chronicle.

    Besides the core loop, I would add to Tessie's point that an issue, in my opinion, is the lack of a "greater than yourself" story material. I know several people love Beast because it has a more personal and intimate feel to it, but it shouldn't be the only way to play it. A Changeling story can focus on the hardships of characters rebuilding their lives, but it can as well be an epic tale of a crusade against the True Fae. Requiem can be as much about the personal horror of slipping Humanity, or just focus on the uprising against the local Prince. Even Promethean, despite not having much for Tier 2 or Tier 3 type of stories, is a game that completely revolves around the long-term goal of becoming human.
    What I'm trying to say, it needs something long-term players can look forward to in a chronicle. Yes, you have the Apex and the Inheritance in Beast, but these don't seem to be presented like core concepts of the game.

    I would also want to say that Beast doesn't have much literature/ trope culture to rely upon. Most CofD splats take an archetypal monster or creature that is well-established in culture, and take a new spin on it, expanding it with original lore. This whole mass of tropes constitutes the basis upon which the games can be firmly built. It gives players a common ground, an example to think of, an inspiration to get excited about the game. I feel like Beast misses any of this, and hence lies on shaky grounds.

    Because I don't want to steer this discussion away from the purpose of this thread, which is a re-reading of the books, I think we can see how my point comes out from the Inspirational Media section of the Introduction. There seems to be a discrepancy between what is presented as inspirational material and what actually the game is about.
    It references the classic myths and epics, and yet the game doesn't focus so much on them. It's not Scion.
    It explicitly cites Swamp Thing as an example of a "nobler" Beast becoming a hero, and yet, from what I understand, one of the most beloved themes of the game is that the game is not about being an antihero, but accepting that you're a monster and that you need to hurt others.

    As it's already been said, the way the game presents itself can be very misleading and confusing, ultimately because it lacks an identity rooted firmly in an archetypal model.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Cleverest of Things View Post
      As someone who hasn't yet read the Players guide or conquering heroes, I will ask if they clarify that while Devouring concept better. The introduction outright says "anyone can become a beast", which as the last few posts have mentioned does come across as "well, you didn't HAVE to become a monster, it's all on you now". It contradicts other things in the book (The idea that you "always dreamed deep", the idea that Heroes and Beasts are related), and also seems to contradict later sidebars (the one where I think a changeling is confused as to why one beast killed another’s mortal sister or something, and how everyone just accepted it because that beast was just born that way and had no choice in the matter).

      I personally preferred Homecoming, and lean towards portraying the Devouring less as "you get to choose to become a beast" and more "I can show you what's going on with you and why you've been different if you let me", but I'm still not sure which interpretation is more sound in the later books.
      I loved the homecoming to it sounds better than devouring with its diction alone. And I'm also do not like other people in general involved in my soul searching. The lesson thing does feel slap dashingly put to together. And makes everything sound like victims blaming. Like I cried when i read
      Last edited by Konradleijon; 03-23-2021, 06:33 PM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post

        I loved the homecoming to it sounds better than devouring with its diction alone. And I'm also do not like other people in general involved in my soul searching. The lesson thing does feel slap dashingly put to together. And makes everything sound like victims blaming. Like I cried when i read
        You've stated this point in other threads multiple times. Please don't bring it up again unless you have something new to contribute.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #34
          All right throughout the game like I always thought Heros were boring! And not at all a threat to Beasts I think that was intentional do, still doesn't make it better. The first draft had an interesting idea of them being made by a certain beast was very interesting and if the leaned into it it’ll be interesting. Kind of like how a hero and their Archnemesis often have this weird seemingly romantic obsession with each other, see Death Note as a story of a Nemesis Beast vs a Hero. And they could have added that into the game. Like have a Hero and their “Soulmate” has something like a bloodhound together. Where they both affect each other and might not be able to survive with each other. Or play up the tragedy of the Primordial Dream forcing innocent people into a role of a monster hunter with all the tragedy that comes with it, see Princess Tutu, or on an even lighter note the Hasbro series Ever After High, which is about the children of famous Fairy Tale characters in high school and how some chose to reject their destiny and others chose to embrace it as inspiration for Beasts and their relationship with heroes.

          Theirs Also this story and I can't place it, about two friends and how one is forced to be a villain and one a hero by some cosmic force maybe krs just a idea bunny I have.
          Last edited by Konradleijon; 03-23-2021, 07:58 PM.

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          • #35
            Heroes, like most antagonists, are as interesting as you make them. The suffer, because it's Beast, from the disjointedness of the core book, but they're designed to be flexible so you can build them how you want to. Try to force an even more narrow narrative for them (like the romance angle) seems like it would make them more boring, not less, because there would be less you can do with them. It's really not hard to do most of what you're talking about with the tools the game already provides.

            It's also important to make sure that Heroes maintain some agency in all this to make them effective antagonists. If you erase their agency and put it all on the Primordial Dream sucking them into things, you just turn them into murderbots instead letting them be complex people with their own motivations, rationales, and methods.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by moonwhisper View Post
              Even as a player, there are a couple of things I would be looking forward to: expanding my Lair, developing Kinship, aiming for Inheritance.
              So here’s the revelation I had years ago that I never get tired of sharing: The thing that naturally exists in the space between the above goals, feeding, and the Hero of the week is... dealing with mundane problems while happening to be a Beast. Which in fact is something very easy to integrate feeding into.

              Beast: The Primordial is accidentally mostly a really weird slice-of-life game. Think “Being Human: The Roleplaying Game” and you’re on the right track.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post

                I loved the homecoming to it sounds better than devouring with its diction alone. And I'm also do not like other people in general involved in my soul searching. The lesson thing does feel slap dashingly put to together. And makes everything sound like victims blaming. Like I cried when i read
                On the same day I returned to note taking.

                You've been explicitly called out by a mod, but I also want to reiterate a rule I literally fucking put in the first god damn post:

                Originally posted by ArcaneArts
                5) Yes, Beast went through a hasty rewrite in the middle of it's Kickstarter. I have various stages of Beast prior to those rewrites in my folders. We are not talking about about any Beast corebook beyond the finished copy that you could now get from DriveThruRPG. While we can accept that some concepts from earlier can factor into the reading (looking at you, Homecoming), please keep commentary on earlier versions to a minimum and focus primarily on the final product.
                You've been told to not bring it up unless you have something new, but I am reiterating here and now that even if you do have something new, don't post it here. That's not what this thread is about.

                Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post

                So here’s the revelation I had years ago that I never get tired of sharing: The thing that naturally exists in the space between the above goals, feeding, and the Hero of the week is... dealing with mundane problems while happening to be a Beast. Which in fact is something very easy to integrate feeding into.

                Beast: The Primordial is accidentally mostly a really weird slice-of-life game. Think “Being Human: The Roleplaying Game” and you’re on the right track.
                My Cheap Ass Summary of Beast is "imagine Scion had a child with Golden Sky Stories that's going through it's goth phase.*" The way GSS handles it's relationships is one of the major things I eyeball when I consider hacking Kinship.

                *Of course, as far as I know, the number of people that summary is useful for counts on one hand.
                Last edited by ArcaneArts; 03-24-2021, 02:40 AM.


                Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                Feminine pronouns, please.

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                • #38
                  Beast does wonders when it comes to daily conflicts & personal relationships and, as far as I'm concerned, it shines the most when used to run Tier 0/Tier 1 games.

                  I'll defend this take until the Sun dies down.


                  Cinder's Comprehensive Collection of Creations - Homebrew Hub

                  I write about Beast: The Primordial a lot

                  This is what I'm working on

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                  • #39
                    The other obvious answer is “Get incessantly involved in other splats’ problems” but that just calls attention to the question of whether half the word count taken up by Kinship and crossover would have been better spent on more standalone plot fodder.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
                      The other obvious answer is “Get incessantly involved in other splats’ problems” but that just calls attention to the question of whether half the word count taken up by Kinship and crossover would have been better spent on more standalone plot fodder.
                      That's an important source of Beast stories too, and one I want to discuss more once I get to those sections of the core. For now, my preview goes along the lines of "it's cool that Beast's the crossover gameline and it should be so, perhaps while explaining more the awesomeness if offers thanks to that concept BUT I feel it's important it stands on its own legs even *before* adding the slightly less core concept of crossover to it".

                      Bit of a complex topic, because my feelings on the matter don't go for a binary "crossover good, crossover bad" (well, crossover's good, but with some corollaries), not to mention the discussion for this thread should stay focused on the core itself.

                      Also, since I run on anxiety, guilt, and energy drinks: I did not forget about this thread, but really cool unrelated things I'm not allowed to talk about happened and I gotta dedicate my attention to them. Sorry folks, I'll return to this thread as I promised once I'm done working on stuff.
                      Last edited by Cinder; 03-24-2021, 12:17 PM.


                      Cinder's Comprehensive Collection of Creations - Homebrew Hub

                      I write about Beast: The Primordial a lot

                      This is what I'm working on

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                      • #41
                        Yeah I always imagined Beast as tier one games.,Slice of Life stories filled with a variety of terrible people, maybe something like its Always Sunny in Philadelphia. And maybe one or two none garbage people.

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                        • #42
                          I'll probably chat more on the crossover when I notate it properly, but for me it I think it's more important to contextualize for Beast less as explictly-crossover and more "This splat gets involved in other monster's business as a way of building their Legend/Lair*, and other monsters are incentivized to get into a Beast's sphere because it offers sideways benefits." Implicit, more like. Again, a second edition core would probably take notes from how Vigil First Edition did it, and would have to definitely include the Horror Creation System from the Chronicles core.

                          *In the same way that, say, the tales of Dinadan, Galehaut, Lancelot, etc., all ultimately serve of building up the myth of Arthur, though Beasts take it on in a more literal sense.


                          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                          Feminine pronouns, please.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                            I'll probably chat more on the crossover when I notate it properly, but for me it I think it's more important to contextualize for Beast less as explictly-crossover and more "This splat gets involved in other monster's business as a way of building their Legend/Lair*, and other monsters are incentivized to get into a Beast's sphere because it offers sideways benefits." Implicit, more like. Again, a second edition core would probably take notes from how Vigil First Edition did it, and would have to definitely include the Horror Creation System from the Chronicles core.

                            *In the same way that, say, the tales of Dinadan, Galehaut, Lancelot, etc., all ultimately serve of building up the myth of Arthur, though Beasts take it on in a more literal sense.
                            That's a way to put it I feel I can wholeheartedly agree with. Covers my feelings on the crossover's topic well, considering I think it's more important to deliver what the deal with Begotten interacting with other monsters is than to explicitly state Primordial's a crossover gameline. Show, don't tell, and do it with with solid thematic reasons too. I'll eventually get to the details sooner or later.

                            In the meantime, picture me pointing at this reply while saying "this".


                            Cinder's Comprehensive Collection of Creations - Homebrew Hub

                            I write about Beast: The Primordial a lot

                            This is what I'm working on

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Note to self: You have way too much to write, but do remember to explore the question "Why a crossover template?" and what that should mean for Beast going forward.


                              Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                              Feminine pronouns, please.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I'm always thought you where suppose to poach other game lines antagonists

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