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Similarities Between Beast and fan game lines.

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  • ryu238
    started a topic Similarities Between Beast and fan game lines.

    Similarities Between Beast and fan game lines.

    Am I the only one that noticed some similiarities between Beast and fan gambling like Leviathan and Dragon? Its not just that all are primordial monsters, but bigger things like how both Dragons and Beasts seem to be born from dreams, or the focus on herioc mythology as antagonists in Leviathan (and Dragon to a lesser extent). Were the writers of Beast taking notes?

  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Originally posted by ryu238 View Post


    just saw this...and I guess you would know then
    Funnily enough, he would.

    Leave a comment:


  • ryu238
    replied
    Originally posted by Bunyip View Post

    No.

    just saw this...and I guess you would know then

    Leave a comment:


  • Bunyip
    replied
    Originally posted by ryu238 View Post
    Were the writers of Beast taking notes?
    No.

    Leave a comment:


  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post

    I think you’re confusing Dragon and Leviathan with Genius and Siren just a bit.
    Not to be overly mean, but why not all four?

    Leave a comment:


  • Sith_Happens
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    the worst excesses of fangame-construction that those two committed
    I think you’re confusing Dragon and Leviathan with Genius and Siren just a bit.

    Leave a comment:


  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    You definitely have been talking to very biased sources, and if the number of times I've talked at length about Beast is an indicator, it's that Beast isn't necessarily shallow, so much as it is, to borrow from one of those times I talked about this issue, simple despite it's depth and features characters who start off actualized in a way most other characters aren't. (Check out the rest of that post, it covers a lot of what people are saying when they call it shallow)

    Admittedly, the corebook's development needed much better focus, and it seems like a lot of people didn't know how to really answer the question of what you do with characters who start where other characters might end. Presentation will improve as time goes on.

    Leave a comment:


  • reaperfrost8
    replied
    I feel compelled to mention that in a discord talk one of the writers for dragon 2e before he left the project stated that one of the most frustrating

    things people on the project wanted to do was straight up bolt the mage line to it by connecting both supernal and astral towards the fan game.

    As a person who used to love plenty of fan games for quite a long while especially a decade ago I can appreciate the hard work needed to start and finish them. I can also understand that just because they worked hard on it doesn't mean it can't be bad or have poor themes.

    Also and this is something I should mention in regards to fan games especially the recent ones. Whenever there's mention of beasts it seems like the fan line has some narrative awareness suddenly stating that there outright abusers as if the fan line read the core and forum conversations and being stereotyped by the fan line as the true antagonist of that line to the point where in wonder if they want the beast to be the villains instead of whatever antagonist they have set.

    Like I can understand if you don't like beast or a specific splat much but seriously most of those stereotypes turns me off and makes me not want to play your game.
    Last edited by reaperfrost8; 03-06-2021, 04:38 AM.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by ryu238 View Post
    Admittly, most of my knowledge of all three gamelines comes from tvtropes, and I am aware of significant differences. If anything Beast did take many of the common elements they shared...and just stuck with it, becoming a bit...shallow from what i hear.
    You heard from people with a bone to pick. The threads detailing why this is a bad take still litter this board and I am not eager to rehash them this late at night. Scroll through. Read up.

    Suffice it to be said, having been in discussions for Dragon and Leviathan at various points in their development makes me ill-inclined to take the assessment that Beast is "shallow" compared to the worst excesses of fangame-construction that those two committed seriously. Primordial knows what it's about at this point and fills a niche in the greater cosmology that Embers and Tempest struggled to harmonize for themselves.

    Beast's primary issues at this point in time are the inability to pay its refinement-over-time backward and the people running around with the same level of understanding as "mages know everything" and "werewolves are spirit-cops" from an obsolete draft of the corebook. Much as Geist got a stronger focus in its Second Edition, a subsequent pass at Primordial will very probably benefit from being able to lay out talking points from the jump with the advantage of hindsight. It's still a conceptually solid gameline before then.

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  • tasti man LH
    replied
    Originally posted by ryu238 View Post
    ...and just stuck with it, becoming a bit...shallow from what i hear.
    ...dude are you really going to be saying this in the Beast sub-forum?

    Leave a comment:


  • ryu238
    replied
    Admittly, most of my knowledge of all three gamelines comes from tvtropes, and I am aware of significant differences. If anything Beast did take many of the common elements they shared...and just stuck with it, becoming a bit...shallow from what i hear.

    Leave a comment:


  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    I never read Dragon all the way through, and I used to like the idea of Leviathan but found myself turned off be the actual text (and development conversations for it's second edition, which had a lot of yikes last I looked), so I'm working with incomplete details from there.

    What I am not working with incomplete details is the attitudes of the longer-term freelancers, many of whom were also developers for other gamelines and book projects. And the general concensus is "don't read fangames." There's no unified reason for why this attitude is held, mind you, but basically old hands who actually had a hand in shaping what Beast was wouldn't read fangames, so a lot of the shape of Beast having similarities comes down to just simply trying to draw from the similar well of sources and themes that accompany the ideas and iconography they draw from. Newer authors who might have read those fangames and been influenced in their writings by them usually didn't have the room for those sort of insert due to the (admittedly still mismatched) handling of above authors (aided and abbetted by the fact that those senior freelancers would largely recommend or hire people who seemed to have a fuller grasp of Chronicles material rather than those interested in promoting or pimping fangames).

    Fan games inevitably cross paths with a lot of official text. Princess had direct correlations drawn between itself and Mage, Changeling, and Hunter, and after the seal was popped and the Second Age of Chronicles began again with Mummy, would also get Beast comparisons. Genius lives in the shadow of both Ascension and Awakening Mage. Dragon itself had a few commentators accusing it of being a Requiem that tried to get away with ignoring the weaknesses that made the splat interesting. Mummy got accused of Leviathan copying for both it's cosmic horror and bombastic scale of power. Changeling the Lost briefly in it's early days had a dedicated group of anti-fans who were convinced it was made to shut down the Changeling the Dreaming: Chronicles Version project down. This shit happens.

    Most professionals just aren't interested in the average fan work anymore, and above average fan work tends to lead towards a fan becoming a professional.

    As for going forward-well, as one of the two people who is interested in pitching books for Beast (that I'm aware of, anyways), I used to read fangames and products a lot, and even now I maintain mild interest-but going forward, I really don't have any interest in acknowledging games that carry potential correlations with Beast anymore, because a lot of the people who spearhead those projects have demonstrated their interest in using them as a platform to hate on Beast and pimp the (again, pretty much officially bullshit) notion that Beast was copying them.

    That asides, there are some games I keep an eye on for crosschecking for Beast that inform how I think it goes along, but they are all official products for their companies. I might run my thoughts of how Beast should be by looking at Scion (which I think would be fair to say the relatively in-house thing that Beast is sideways arguably the Chronicles' response to), Dungeons and Dragons (because of course), Golden Sky Stories, specifically Fantasy Friends (because Beast very much is what happens when you make that game a horror game, and I think we could improve on the text and mechanics a lot by keeping an eye on it), and Ryuutama (itself already a response to DnD that helps to anchor Beast in the world rather than it's food, and the Ryuujin in particular scratches a lot of itches and excites the mind about how the Dark Mother might be handled going forward).

    Anyways, all of that aside, is Beast possibly cribbing from Dragon and Leviathan, and some of the other forgotten Mythic Creature Fangames? Honestly, no-if anyone was interested in that sort of cribbing, it was probably one or two of the lowbie writers who wouldn't have had the power and authority to really institute it that way. Will Beast ever take notes from these games going forward? Honestly, no-the game has better things to take notes from and act as a shadow to.

    Does Beast look like these games because the oceans of themes, influences, iconography, and feelings are similar? Yes, but that's what happens when people go to play with similar sources.

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  • LostLight
    replied
    Most chances are that it was more of a coincidence and the fact that all of those gamelines drew upon the common idea of mythic, ancient monsters. All of the games have some lovecraftian elements (which reinforces the themes of fear and dreams), not to mention that the Astral was presented as the "realm of archetypes", which fits mythological creatures. Also, the Bygone Beastry from the WoD also used some of those themes, and that one was used as an inspiration for Beast- so yeah, when all gamelines try to iterate the same basic concept and draw upon the same source material of legendary monsters of myth, it makes sense that the results will be somewhat similar, at least aesthetically.

    Leave a comment:

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