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Incarnates vs. Idigam

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  • Incarnates vs. Idigam

    Werewolf has the Idigam which are godlike spirits that are the main antagonists. The Beasts Incarnate seem pretty powerful as well. Can it be argued that they are of similar power levels or that one foe is stronger than the other?

  • #2
    Do you mean the incarnates, Beasts that undergo the Incarnate Inheritance, or the Insatiable, the strange hungers that manage to form a physical presence in the material world without joining with a human via the Devouring?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
      Do you mean the incarnates, Beasts that undergo the Incarnate Inheritance, or the Insatiable, the strange hungers that manage to form a physical presence in the material world without joining with a human via the Devouring?

      I was originally thinking about the Beasts that undergo the Incarnate Inheritance, but now that you mention the Insatiable, I would like to compare them as well. How to Insatiable compare to the Idigam?

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      • #4
        I think the Idigam are quite objectively vastly more powerful than either. However, an Idigam that expends the energy to get to the material plane does have its power significantly reduced (and thus is actually something PCs can be expected to defeat). Incarnates can be nasty, but even at their strongest they're not that far beyond what a group of experienced PCs can dish out. They also still deal with the fact that if they're killed, they'd dead. Insatiable aren't necessarily a huge step up in raw power, but have a lot more going for them as never really being living things. Defeating one is very different from actually killing one. So they're tenacious in a pervasive magical way, and smart so they learn from their defeats, if you don't manage to really kill one properly, it might just pop back up stronger than ever.

        The idigam are just a very different level of threat. They're entities so powerful deity level spirits imprisoned them over trying to destroy them completely. One coming down is supposed to be such a big threat that every werewolf pack in the vicinity will drop their grudges to gang up on one intruding on Earth.

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        • #5
          Obviously we need to lay out the obvious that there's no power scouter method of looking at the twain and screaming that one of them is Over 9000 while the other is not, that there's internal ranges of power with each and variety of tools for each, so the only real way is to discuss them in broad generalities and how one might inconvenience the other, so here's that. We should also note that "Godlike" is not entirely the right word for idigam.

          Also, to self, we really need to square that circle regarding Beast, thematic power in the Chronicles, and Incarnates. ANyways.


          The idigam's main advantages are primarily that when it Coalesces, they tend to rock the ecological boat of any given setting with large scale effects, be they passive auras or deliberate actions, can usually craft some array of discordant and unusual minions and/or general messmakers, and is personally/metaphysically at odds with how most people would approach matters of the spirits and the Shadow-they aren't conventionally powerful so much as they are intensely disruptive, throwing a setting into chaos and having plenty to distract from their role as orchestrator of the storm. Uncoalesced, they're hard to take advantage of, since they constantly shift advantages and weaknesses that might otherwise pin them down, which means they have an increased ability to escape and Recoalesce and have at it again.

          Incarnates are quite powerful, but they are so in particular ways, and for this conversation, the simplest way to think about their relevant points is the same as a highly powered Beasts with a very amped up Atavistic side and higher mobility in a cosmological sense. TO that end, they're advantages are amplifying environmental advantages to their own ends, having a wide network of allies within different metaphysical spheres, cosmological mobility that translates into an adaptable viewpoint, and very ready tools both physical and psychospiritual to work with.

          THe biggest thing that emerges from this conversation is that an Incarnate is better equipped to change gears than conventional dealers-with-spirits-and-Shadow, though they'll lack the potential depth of knowledge of at least the board that idigams play in versus those bunch, and can render....Not order, but advantage against the normal chaotic set with the implementation of their Lair. The idigam, however, counters that by sheer scale of turbulence-a Incarnate may be able to imlement lair in a lot of places, but it doesn't compare to a whole city's worth of territory. THe Incarnate's associations are also something of weird mismatch set against the Idigam, since again a the myriad of friends an Incarnate has is likely to counter-match the sheer weirdness the idigam forges, but they're likely to not be as coordinated as those entities an Idigam would keep close, and the minions an idigam creates to serves as a grenade or otherwise chaosbringer has that cheapness of cost that's hard to pit family against. The Incarnate's probably more out and out powerful than an idigam, but even direct conflict is sideways affairs with the idigam, and while that's a method of thinking the Incarnate is used to, it still lacks the depth to really be effective.

          If you want to put money on a general winner in a Schrodinger box of conflict, I'll say I do ultimately favor the Incarnate over the idigam, because the the Beast's breadth of options can meet up with other people's depth of knowledge and produce answers that neatly corner the idigam's particular cart-upsetting approach to it's neck of the woods, where as a Idigam's weirdness only goes so far within tit's spirit/Shadow sphere and the ability to step and employ options beyond that are much more limited-but the Idigam is just equipped to create problems on a scale and in a metaphysical position that an Incarnate isn't equipped to deal with, and so even if an Incarnate has the edge, it's gonna be a long headache for them regardless.

          So, short answer, probably the Incarnate more than the idigam, better answer, white room conflict and overly simplified power matches are a sucker's game.


          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
          Feminine pronouns, please.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by maryshelly View Post
            Can it be argued that they are of similar power levels or that one foe is stronger than the other?
            Apparently! But it's the internet so anything can be argued.

            You can just look at the Incarnates in the Beast core and the idigam in the Werewolf core and it should be pretty clear. They don't serve the same thematic purpose for the games so they're not meant to be similar in power or anything.

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            • #7
              On the Insatiable-great, pit one ecosystem wreaking shit storm against ANOTHER ecosystem wreaking shit storm.

              On that one, I'll just settle on saying whoever wins, everyone else loses.


              Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
              Feminine pronouns, please.

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              • #8
                I have to say, I was approaching this from more of the perspective of, "if I was a PC, what would I rather fight," than pitting them against each other.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  I have to say, I was approaching this from more of the perspective of, "if I was a PC, what would I rather fight," than pitting them against each other.
                  Oh, on that angle, i'll take the Incarnate over the idigam any day of the week. Despite the Incarnate arguably winning, reconciling with an Incarnate's advantages is, at least in theory, easier than dealing with an idigam, on just a base level.

                  Of course, if you want to get nightmarish, you could always team up the Incarnate and the idigam. And the Insatiable too, for good measure*.

                  *Which I've done in my head, idigam and Insatiable, one wanting to destroy fate and one wanting to prove fate as a imposed delusion of humanity. They suck.


                  Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                  The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                  Feminine pronouns, please.

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                  • #10
                    I'm pretty sure that's when you accept the loses to the world, hide, and let them win so they turn on each other. Then you kill the winner after it's significantly weakened.

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                    • #11
                      I'm pretty sure there's protocol for it. I mean it probably involves the Technocracy launching soul shredder nukes to scour the area, but I think that team up is potentially stoppable. XD

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                      • #12
                        But what happens if the Incarnate tells the Technocracy that appearing in the wrong franchise makes them the reality deviants?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                          The idigam are just a very different level of threat. They're entities so powerful deity level spirits imprisoned them over trying to destroy them completely.
                          Do we have reason to assume that even for the most powerful spirits, they have options for permanently killing one another apart from basically eating the losing spirit?

                          Could the idigam be assumed to have a nature so weird that even Luna would not exactly be eager to consume them?

                          When idigam are described as generally being between Rank 3 and 5, I get the impression that their threat is less in terms of scope than depth; that the particular expressions of their power are abhorrent to the ecology of the Hisil of which spirits and Uratha are a part and have investment in, which also leaves them not quite playing by the usual rules that are used to engage with such things and bring them to heel.

                          I suppose even for the prospect of a Celestine killing spirits, an argument could be made that the strangely unformed nature of an idigam makes it weird to try effectively killing them, but I would think that's a function less of power scope and more what they're made of.

                          Originally posted by Heavy Arms
                          One coming down is supposed to be such a big threat that every werewolf pack in the vicinity will drop their grudges to gang up on one intruding on Earth.
                          But isn't that more about the particular kinds of things that they do?


                          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                          Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            Do we have reason to assume that even for the most powerful spirits, they have options for permanently killing one another apart from basically eating the losing spirit?

                            Could the idigam be assumed to have a nature so weird that even Luna would not exactly be eager to consume them?

                            When idigam are described as generally being between Rank 3 and 5, I get the impression that their threat is less in terms of scope than depth; that the particular expressions of their power are abhorrent to the ecology of the Hisil of which spirits and Uratha are a part and have investment in, which also leaves them not quite playing by the usual rules that are used to engage with such things and bring them to heel.

                            I suppose even for the prospect of a Celestine killing spirits, an argument could be made that the strangely unformed nature of an idigam makes it weird to try effectively killing them, but I would think that's a function less of power scope and more what they're made of.
                            Without eating, they would have to use a bane, which not all spirits would be capable of pulling off. And since some of them were on the moon, although they were starved of Essence they weren't killed by Luna or a horde of lunes so presumably eating them is off limits for one reason or another.

                            More specifically with the Ranks, it's that they sort of shrug at the whole 'No Rank 6's allowed,' and even before that have capabilities far beyond spirits or other ephemerals of Rank 4 and up. It's only the formless that are found at Rank 3, incidentally, and taking a form (Coalescing) increases Rank by 1, so you wouldn't find low Rank idigam.

                            The weakest idigam encountered have been Formless, usually freshly descended onto the world from their lunar prison. Such idigam are merely as powerful as an Ensih (Rank 3). The most powerful of the idigam that the Forsaken know of, the terrifying Gurdilag, was a Dihar (Rank 6) once Coalesced, but even more potent Moon-Banished may still wait in the shadows. Most Coalesced are Ensahim (Rank 4) or Dihim (Rank 5).
                            The other part of the issue is that what they decide to be 'made of' determines their power scope. One is becoming a star (which, if realized, means death to everyone on the planet, as we cannot sustain a star even if it's in the middle of the Pacific) one is becoming an underworld, a place where people go after they die, and another is attempting to become vast enough to fill the Gauntlet, which extends at least the scope of the planet. While some are placing more intense focus on local things (the angel from Wolfsbane, or the one focused on a school in Shunned) they're still representative of big changes in those areas. Worth noting that while some seem to becoming spirits of new things, others seem to be trying to become new things entirely, and aren't limited to just turning into spirits.

                            But isn't that more about the particular kinds of things that they do?
                            Usually a mix of that and how dangerous and unknowable they are. Since knowing is half the battle with ephemerals, their mystifying nature and blanket immunity to 'control' powers gives them a huge edge.
                            Last edited by nofather; 05-22-2021, 10:53 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                              ...I get the impression that their threat is less in terms of scope than depth;
                              This feels like a distinction without a difference.

                              But isn't that more about the particular kinds of things that they do?
                              Yes?

                              The Incarnate are scary because they're Beasts, but with some extra perks. The Idigam are playing by completely different rules.

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