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The Makara and The Plain

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
    Arc,do you have any thoughts on the Incarnate? Any changee you want to make to them?
    Do you mean the Insatiable? Because the incarnation is an inheritance, aka an end game. The Insatiable are the primal nightmares, children of typhon instead of the dark mother.

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    • #32
      I actually do mean the incarnate

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
        I actually do mean the incarnate
        Hmm. I would like to see the end games. But I would prefer to sew the Insatiable

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        • #34
          The Insatiable are actually fairly simple, and once I get a Hunger write up to explain my thought process going into Chapter 1 of the Beast book, you'll see what I mean. For now, I'll say I dunno how the Insatiable ended up feeling kinda messy and janky when the obvious role and purpose of the Insatiable was staring everyone in the face-but this may be because I keep my Beast-as-commentary-on-nihilism glasses at the ready.

          The Incarnates are something I need to get around to really kicking around, though properly squaring Heroes and the Astral and expanding Kinship will probably answer a lot of that. In the short, thematically, the Incarnates are tuned correctly*, we don't need to course correct the ideas that make them up. Where Incarnates become interesting is regarding the larger scale issue of Beast's power scale and relationship to the rest of the Chronicles, what that should be, what's "gated" behind the Incarnate Inheritance, and how that should play between the themes.

          I suppose a simpler way to put it is that if we take the phrase "A god is just a monster you kneel to" as one of those vitally important concepts for looking at Beast, then what does it mean when the Incarnate are still a "step up" from Beasthood? In my conception of future versions of Beast having a lot more involvement with Astral Gods, what does it mean when I immediately say the Incarnates are among them, but waffle on whether or not that means High Lair Beasts aren't?

          THe framework for answering that problem is, like a lot of things in Beast, inherently there-I just haven't gotten around to firming it up into realization. And it's something I could probably rant a fair bit about.

          *It's a metaphor for suicide and a parallel to heroism (though not in the vein of way we're approaching Heroes with the Forsworn, and that's fine), mythic apotheosis that leaves nothing but the most self-satisfied monster, and that's not strictly a good thing.


          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
          Feminine pronouns, please.

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          • #35
            Seeing what you do with the Insatiable will be interesting, as I've long felt that there is a (probably unintentional) fundamental hypocrisy in their conception, but at the same time they bring enough to the table to make the setting deeper and more complex in some potentially satisfying ways.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by espritdecalmar View Post
              Seeing what you do with the Insatiable will be interesting, as I've long felt that there is a (probably unintentional) fundamental hypocrisy in their conception, but at the same time they bring enough to the table to make the setting deeper and more complex in some potentially satisfying ways.
              We'll make a post on it later today. It really is just "give them a better core to connect all the pieces and clean up some of the messier mechanics" though.


              Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
              Feminine pronouns, please.

              Comment


              • #37
                Two thoughts

                1) Is there a connection between the Plain from Hurt Locker and the Plain Forsworn? Beyond the name, I see a similar sort of simplistic, dogmatic worldview at play possibly.

                2) Do the Makara always have to be the Depths you plunged yourself into? Can they sometimes be the flood that brought the depths to you no matter how you ran? Or is the Flood Anakim? I just wonder about this because I was thinking about a potential new Family yesterday (as part of a discussion, but I was more listening to myself than engaging with the other participants' ideas sadly) that was the fear of "Being Wrong". The fear that you had bad information, made bad logical connections, somehow strayed into territory that will get you hurt or worse. Whether it was just following the wrong person or outright sensory hallucinations, you fear that your guide, your senses, can't be trusted. In my conception at the time, I guess I'm just wondering it that idea is totally covered by this version of the Makara


                A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
                  1) Is there a connection between the Plain from Hurt Locker and the Plain Forsworn? Beyond the name, I see a similar sort of simplistic, dogmatic worldview at play possibly.


                  Not really. Hurt Locker-style Plain are normal people who've started to tap into powers based on Radical levels of Non-Violence/Pacifism, whereas the Plain described in this thread are a "Homebrew" type of Hero who've rejected a type of fear in a manner that has the potential to become extremely toxic.

                  Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
                  2) Do the Makara always have to be the Depths you plunged yourself into? Can they sometimes be the flood that brought the depths to you no matter how you ran? Or is the Flood Anakim? I just wonder about this because I was thinking about a potential new Family yesterday (as part of a discussion, but I was more listening to myself than engaging with the other participants' ideas sadly) that was the fear of "Being Wrong". The fear that you had bad information, made bad logical connections, somehow strayed into territory that will get you hurt or worse. Whether it was just following the wrong person or outright sensory hallucinations, you fear that your guide, your senses, can't be trusted. In my conception at the time, I guess I'm just wondering it that idea is totally covered by this version of the Makara
                  …I'm not entirely sure, actually. Yo', ArcaneArts! Got anything to say 'bout 'dis stuff?


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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
                    Two thoughts

                    1) Is there a connection between the Plain from Hurt Locker and the Plain Forsworn? Beyond the name, I see a similar sort of simplistic, dogmatic worldview at play possibly.

                    2) Do the Makara always have to be the Depths you plunged yourself into? Can they sometimes be the flood that brought the depths to you no matter how you ran? Or is the Flood Anakim? I just wonder about this because I was thinking about a potential new Family yesterday (as part of a discussion, but I was more listening to myself than engaging with the other participants' ideas sadly) that was the fear of "Being Wrong". The fear that you had bad information, made bad logical connections, somehow strayed into territory that will get you hurt or worse. Whether it was just following the wrong person or outright sensory hallucinations, you fear that your guide, your senses, can't be trusted. In my conception at the time, I guess I'm just wondering it that idea is totally covered by this version of the Makara
                    1) No, though I DID cackle at the deliberateness of perpetuating Chronicles "Demon, Demon, Demon" problem in that way. But the Plain of Hurt Locker are generally kind of fucking amazing pacifists who actually are taking a pretty hard answer to a even harder question. The Plain, Heroes who Forswear the Depths, are people who keep from drowning by never swimming and will drown goldfish in the wide open fields for daring to do so.

                    2)I'd peg that Family idea more as the Inguma, Inguma as Fear of the Other extending beyond basic stranger danger and into the genuinely disquieting notion that other people know you better than you do and represent what you should be. A big reason people react negatively to the Other is that Others are statements of how to be-and if that person seems to be getting more form that state of being, it can easily read as though they're trying to tell you how to be.

                    but hell, maybe you do, and you just have trouble admitting that to yourself.

                    That said, the Fear the Makara CAN represent with that, though, is when a person realizes that what seemed like a simple and easy world they entered into is a lot more terrifying complex.....and oh gee, the surface is so far away. They could lose themselves and drown in this world, which might mean dying, or becoming a person they don't understand at all but feel they can no longer escape.

                    Beast has always had some thin lines to cut and transition over-look at the way people have trouble reconciling the difference between the Anakim and the Talasii, or how there was once an argument that the Anakim represented every other family, or the confusion about the Eshmaki and the Makara in these threads. A lot of the time, it comes down to what, exactly, a person is really reacting to when they encounter something, and that can be hard to cut the difference between. It takes introspection and a lot of careful parsing out, the sort of things Beasts go through with their Devouring into enlighenment.

                    EDIT: on the Flood, because I was really wanting to talk about that but missed it:

                    It depends on the reaction to the Flood. if the fear is in trying to figure out how you're going ot get around town, where you're getting food from ,where you'll sleep, thinking you might be able swim across, but what about differing currents, or objects being swept along-like, you know you can hypothetically survive the flood because others have but you feel overwhelmed trying to figure out how you're going to do it, that's the Makara. If instead you're just crushed by the inability to do anything as the waters weep through and destroy your homes and hang out, carries away your pets faster than you can ever hope to swim and catch up, the certainty that you can't swim across that rapid-that there's nothing you can do about the flood, and your life is in the hands of more competent strangers and the water itself, that's a watery Anakim.
                    Last edited by ArcaneArts; 08-01-2021, 10:44 PM.


                    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                    Feminine pronouns, please.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                      1) No, though I DID cackle at the deliberateness of perpetuating Chronicles "Demon, Demon, Demon" problem in that way. But the Plain of Hurt Locker are generally kind of fucking amazing pacifists who actually are taking a pretty hard answer to a even harder question. The Plain, Heroes who Forswear the Depths, are people who keep from drowning by never swimming and will drown goldfish in the wide open fields for daring to do so.
                      Pascifism, FUCK YEAH!


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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                        2)I'd peg that Family idea more as the Inguma, Inguma as Fear of the Other extending beyond basic stranger danger and into the genuinely disquieting notion that other people know you better than you do and represent what you should be. A big reason people react negatively to the Other is that Others are statements of how to be-and if that person seems to be getting more form that state of being, it can easily read as though they're trying to tell you how to be.
                        Huh, the book is right. That *is* a very human-centric fear. Other animals hide and fight non-kin, but I can't really imagine even a dolphin fearing that they are doing "being a dolphin" wrong, even to deny it. The wild animal fears many, many things. But they know in their bones what they are, and what they are told by their very DNA to do in most relevant situations. And even when they have more subjective choices, like mates and a glut of food choices, they don't tend to look to other animals for that answer once they've left infancy.

                        EDIT: Now I'm thinking back to my recent evolutionary biology/sociology of humanity class and wondering what Family would house the fear and lesson that we are our minds are just as bound by the evolutionary past as our bodies, but that but by understanding that past and what it means, we can create a world where humans can feel not just materially cared for (though we need to make that more universal too), but even spiritually fulfilled. I'm thinking Namtaru, for that acceptance of imperfection and your own body turning against you. The Horror would likely look like some filthy, blood-stained nightmare version of one of those early illustrations of neanderthals.
                        Last edited by Master Aquatosic; 08-04-2021, 06:38 PM.


                        A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post

                          Huh, the book is right. That *is* a very human-centric fear. Other animals hide and fight non-kin, but I can't really imagine even a dolphin fearing that they are doing "being a dolphin" wrong, even to deny it. The wild animal fears many, many things. But they know in their bones what they are, and what they are told by their very DNA to do in most relevant situations. And even when they have more subjective choices, like mates and a glut of food choices, they don't tend to look to other animals for that answer once they've left infancy.

                          EDIT: Now I'm thinking back to my recent evolutionary biology/sociology of humanity class and wondering what Family would house the fear and lesson that we are our minds are just as bound by the evolutionary past as our bodies, but that but by understanding that past and what it means, we can create a world where humans can feel not just materially cared for (though we need to make that more universal too), but even spiritually fulfilled. I'm thinking Namtaru, for that acceptance of imperfection and your own body turning against you. The Horror would likely look like some filthy, blood-stained nightmare version of one of those early illustrations of neanderthals.
                          Humans are social creatures, and the Inguma are rooted in that instinct to form and keep to groups contrasted with the fear that being in a group is to place yourself among wolves who might very eat their own.

                          The fear that comes from realizing we're basically arrogant and self-deluded animals, walking biological computers whose precepts of free will are untroubling quirks to the protein-programs we're just executing can definitely trigger that failure of form the Namtaru embody-no matter how the ape tries to the meeting the falling angel, it too will fall back, because al it ever was was an ape-but it can also be a neat Talassii mentality, particularly if it crashes through a hunger for trans- or post-humanity, and on the grand scale existential despair it can end up being a Anakim fear as well.

                          And it goes without saying that the terrrible, perpetual realization of that notion whille still being a slave to it makes the Insatiable giddy.


                          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                          Feminine pronouns, please.

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