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[Beast] Why I don't want them in crossovers

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  • Does anyone here not have experience with animal magnetism? Is that why this is such a foreign concept?

    They just are the sort of people that supernatural people are inclined to gravitate to. Whether it's supernatural or a mundane effect of their metaphysical makeup(Is there a difference as a flesh/astral hybrid?), does it really matter? "Oh my god, they are found more likable by things that go bump in the night on first impression provided they aren't wearing a intestinal chain tied up with dildos around their neck" hardly seems like an offensive "OH MY GOD, IT'S DATE-RAPING ME SPIRITUALLY!"* sort of precedent.

    Don't be a dick and slightly more paranoid people are willing to chat with you. Given the veils of secrecy that go around, it strikes me as something that helps Beasts actually approach the supernatural family, which we've established is a theme of the game. There are ways to to subvert it before and after the fact, and It's just one impression step up, meaning congratulations**, you can make social rolls slightly faster. It's hardly game breaking, cosmology altering, or some ridiculous thing.

    Can we cool our jets about this? It's really not the big thing to stress over. Atavisms are closer to deserving this sort of "OH MY GOD" reaction.***

    *Yes, I am aware I am overblowing it grossly.
    **San Francisco, you've ruined pizza.
    ***Also, if you want to look at really slimy implications of stuff, may I remind you all that Blood Bonding is a thing that exists? This ain't nothing compared to that shit.


    Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
    Feminine pronouns, please.

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    • Originally posted by Mechalith View Post


      Satchel is hitting directly on the distinction I've been trying to make. The key point of contention is that I don't consider it a power. Shapeshifting is a power, Changeling pledges are a power, Atavisms and Nightmares are powers, Thicker Than Water is just a social merit that happens to have a supernatural justification in fluff.

      I think part of the reason I'm averse to your interpretation is that all of your examples are things that someone has to do. Even the Family Resemblance ability is an active attempt to deceive someone that the Beast has to make (and is explicitly noted as having a good chance of backfiring.) There is no way for a Beast to not take advantage of Thicker Then Water.
      This is just as much a power as werewolf Shapeshifting is a power. It is no more innate than that is and you yourself call that out as being a power. It is a supernatural ability granted directly to Beasts simply by being Beasts. You do not get this specific ability any other way than by adding on the Beast major supernatural template. Thicker Than Water is a power, specifically a Kinship power. It isn't a merit, it isn't an attribute, it isn't a skill. It is a power, albeit a passive power, but a power nonetheless. End of story.

      Not having to be activated doesn't make something any less of a power. Werewolves regenerate constantly just by doing nothing but being werewolves, and that enhanced regeneration is as detectable as any other power or ability by those with the means to perceive such things. Demons have the ability to lie perfectly. It doesn't take any sort of special action or effort for them to do so, it is just something they can do. Changelings are always hidden behind a passive glamour to make them appear human. This is a constant effect that takes 0 effort to maintain, in fact, it's so persistent it takes a lot of effort to even make it stop for even short periods of time. While their Mask is a fairly potent illusion, it can still be detected by those with the means to do so.

      Long story short, passivity of a supernatural effect makes it no less a supernatural effect. There are examples of this through every line (probably, I don't really know some of the lines well enough to say for sure), and I don't see a thing about Thicker Than Water that would make it an exception.

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      • As a note, with the Mastigos as an example, the best that a beast will get is an Average impression on first impressions when using the doors method of social maneuvering, as a mage is a fundamentally human type, TTW would only give them an average impression, not a good one... now is it a supernatural power? well, let the storyteller adjudicate, thats the point of a storyteller right? its not a mind control power (by the rules specifically) its a social lubricant, its having the right smile when talking about something monstrous, the right pheromones for the beast inside the vampire to smell, the spiritual eddies for the werewolf to recognize or a spirit to comprehend. so, yes, it is somewhat supernatural and it is somewhat not, does it matter? well not really. its on the storyteller. mostly i view this as a way for a chronicle to gloss over having to break into each and every supernatural world and allow beasts to treat supernatural NPC's the way most people treat human NPC's who they are not antagonistic towards.

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        • Originally posted by Hackthulhu View Post
          As a note, with the Mastigos as an example, the best that a beast will get is an Average impression on first impressions when using the doors method of social maneuvering, as a mage is a fundamentally human type, TTW would only give them an average impression, not a good one... now is it a supernatural power? well, let the storyteller adjudicate, thats the point of a storyteller right? its not a mind control power (by the rules specifically) its a social lubricant, its having the right smile when talking about something monstrous, the right pheromones for the beast inside the vampire to smell, the spiritual eddies for the werewolf to recognize or a spirit to comprehend. so, yes, it is somewhat supernatural and it is somewhat not, does it matter? well not really. its on the storyteller. mostly i view this as a way for a chronicle to gloss over having to break into each and every supernatural world and allow beasts to treat supernatural NPC's the way most people treat human NPC's who they are not antagonistic towards.
          Is it a supernatural power when it just gives an average impression? Yes. It doesn't just stop being a supernatural power because it has a lesser effect on certain creature types. It either is or isn't, at least that's how I see it. And I never said it was a mind control power, I said it was a mind influencing power.

          As for whether or not it matters, my answer has always been 'usually not'. There aren't that many abilities throughout nWoD that I'm aware of that can detect mind influencing (or control even) powers. As far as I can tell Werewolf doesn't have one, Vampire doesn't have one (though such a thing would make a pretty nice Devotion), and Changeling only might end up having one, given their predisposition for emotional effects. Again, the biggest offender here is, as usual, mage. 1/5th of their number do have the ability to pick up on something like this, which is why I even originally brought it up as a relevant possibility.

          So while this isn't something that is likely to come up, depending on various factors in the game being played, it was something to be mentioned offhandedly. That said, it seems to have sprawled out into a discussion of what is and what is not a supernatural effect or something. Anyways, back to it.

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          • My my, poor criticisms in the thread & no reason to do it insults of the Mummy line and fans, lovely. The Beast ability strikes me as having the same issues that Charm based social influence had in Exalted 2e. Partially it was poor implementation, and part of it was poor interpretation. While I do think that Beast ability needs some clarification I don't think anyone is going to get anything of use by interpreting it deliberately in the worst light.


            Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment. CofD not getting books so we can get fed WoD5e is an insult.

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            • What makes you think the Beast mythos isn't the true mythos though? It's the same principle as a family tree scattering across the world and eventually diverging into various sub cultures / families. It makes sense even from a real world perspective.

              Beasts are nightmares who prey on people's fears and are born into human forms, Fae and Changelings are the products of dreams and have learned to sustain themselves by feeding on the emotions of humanity, Werewolves are monsters born into a human bodies and drive people to horrified madness if they so much as glimpse their true forms, Vampires sustain themselves by preying upon mortals and literally claim they have "a Beast" within themselves, In fact, with the new 2e vampires, the Beast isn't all about mindless slaughter anymore, but can be directed to more focused goals. Evidence seems to suggest they have a bunch of similarities to each other, but it wasn't until Beast that we began to notice them.




              Everybody has their own version of history, but statistically speaking, one of those versions has to be correct. ^_^

              Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-07-2015, 09:23 PM.

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              • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                What makes you think the Beast mythos isn't the true mythos though? It's the same principle as a family tree scattering across the world and eventually diverging into various sub cultures / families. It makes sense even from a real world perspective.

                Beasts are nightmares who prey on people's fears and are born into human forms, Fae and Changelings are the products of dreams and have learned to sustain themselves by feeding on the emotions of humanity, Werewolves are monsters born into a human bodies and drive people to horrified madness if they so much as glimpse their true forms, Vampires sustain themselves by preying upon mortals and literally claim they have "a Beast" within themselves, In fact, with the new 2e vampires, the Beast isn't all about mindless slaughter anymore, but can be directed to more focused goals. Evidence seems to suggest they have a bunch of similarities to each other, but it wasn't until Beast that we began to notice them.




                Everybody has their own version of history, but statistically speaking, one of those versions has to be correct. ^_^
                False dichotomy. None of the setting's splats have to have a correct "version" of history in any meaningful sense at all. 4 people can all tell 4 nonsensical stories that only have bits of coloured facts and interpretations. Beyond that, WHO CARES! The mood and tone of the NWoD is not set up for a "No no no, splat X is objectively factual on X,Y, & Z. So sayeth the Objective Narrator!" People arguing that Beast is correct, or some one else is are missing the point.


                Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment. CofD not getting books so we can get fed WoD5e is an insult.

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                • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                  Everybody has their own version of history, but statistically speaking, one of those versions has to be correct. ^_^
                  Putting asides statistics, a big point of the mystery of the origin has a lot to do with how it doesn't affect the modern day activities. Beast challenges that notion somewhat because they make a case for rejecting humanity(even as they teach it), and possible association postulates an inevitable decline into monstrosity for everyone, but even then that can be overlooked somewhat.

                  Soooooo everyone has their own version of history, but relatively speaking, that doesn't matter as much on the street as the academics put it sometimes.


                  Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                  The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                  Feminine pronouns, please.

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                  • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                    Everybody has their own version of history, but statistically speaking, one of those versions has to be correct. ^_^
                    No, no it doesn't. What's most likely is that everyone is partially correct but mostly wrong.

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                    • Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                      No, no it doesn't. What's most likely is that everyone is partially correct but mostly wrong.
                      Although, statistically, it's unlikely they'll all be correct/wrong to the same degrees - someone will be more right than most, someone will be less right. (I vote sineaters* - they have more access to eyewitnesses ).

                      * Notice I didn't say which I vote them for; eyewitness testimony doesn't always have a good track record.

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                      • Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                        Does anyone here not have experience with animal magnetism? Is that why this is such a foreign concept?
                        I call it the Supernatural Kinsey Scale! Except, instead of gender, its a sliding scale of attraction to power!

                        Which is why Mummies are dead sexy *rimshot*

                        Sorry, I just had to tell the bad jokes.

                        Atavisms are closer to deserving this sort of "OH MY GOD" reaction.***
                        I really don't understand why people would be having an OMG reaction to Atavisms. Anyone care to explain why its so much worse than, say, Embeds and Exploits? Sure, exp for exp, its arguably more effective to buy up Cyclopean Strength and Lair than Vigor, but Vigor increases base Strength as well as automatic successes, which applies to more than just lifting and throwing, so its debatable which is better there. Dominate 1 seems to be stronger than You Must Obey, imho. Actually, with the exception of You Are Meat (Satiety Spending only) and You Must Obey, I don't think Nightmares are that powerful.

                        Seriously, why? Is it just perception? Am I missing something? Is it just the difference between having to buy up Discipline/Renown levels and freeform powers with no prerequisits? All I can think of is that I must be missing something.

                        Originally posted by Ashenrogue View Post
                        Long story short, passivity of a supernatural effect makes it no less a supernatural effect. There are examples of this through every line (probably, I don't really know some of the lines well enough to say for sure), and I don't see a thing about Thicker Than Water that would make it an exception.
                        Passive supernatural effects do happen. However, not everything about a supernatural must be classifed as supernatural in the first place. That, I think, is the flaw in your argument.

                        Is vitae addictive because it magically creates a psychological addiction? Or is it just addictive in the same way that any street drug is, and people crave the rush? In this case, the rush of energy and pleasure is absolutely supernatural, but the addiction is just a craving for touching more of that supernature. Should we be considering a shapeshifted bat using echolocation to find someone supernatural? That's an important distinction, because we'd have to argue if it can "see" through invisibility automatically, or if we'd need a Clash of Wills.

                        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                        Everybody has their own version of history, but statistically speaking, one of those versions has to be correct. ^_^
                        ... actually, everyone else has answered this well enough.
                        Last edited by MCN; 07-08-2015, 12:17 PM.

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                        • For the record, I don't think Atavisms deserve the ZOMG response either. But is something in this entire conversation should get it, Atavisms deserve it more than Thicker Than Water.


                          Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                          Feminine pronouns, please.

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                          • Originally posted by MCN View Post
                            There's a difference between defensive, and correcting someone when they're mistaken. Including when someone states their opinion as if it was a fact. When you say things, like Werewolf does 10x better with family, something completely and utterly subjective, as if it was an objective truth? We get issues.
                            Packs in Werewolf are 10x better than the current fluff and mechanics for Family vis-a-vis crossovers. That is a fact. Packed in supernaturals get all of the same Totem benefits as the other pack-members so...honestly, this isn't rocket science, and the draft does need more work or this discussion wouldn't even be happening.

                            You're welcome to keep "correcting" me though.

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                            • Originally posted by MCN View Post
                              Passive supernatural effects do happen. However, not everything about a supernatural must be classifed as supernatural in the first place. That, I think, is the flaw in your argument.

                              Is vitae addictive because it magically creates a psychological addiction? Or is it just addictive in the same way that any street drug is, and people crave the rush? In this case, the rush of energy and pleasure is absolutely supernatural, but the addiction is just a craving for touching more of that supernature.
                              Actually, it's a lot more nuanced than what you're saying. Everything supernatural is necessarily classified as supernatural; not everything supernatural generates a Clash of Wills though. So yes, the addicting quality of Vitae is supernatural. Vitae itself is supernatural. It turns humans into Ghouls when they drink it and can unnaturally extend their life-spans. Everything about it is, in fact, supernatural.

                              Note that for the record I'm not arguing that Thicker Than Water should operate other than it does. IIRC, it does generate a Clash of Wills if the supernatural creature is using Obfuscate or similar power.

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                              • Originally posted by Jacob View Post
                                Note that for the record I'm not arguing that Thicker Than Water should operate other than it does. IIRC, it does generate a Clash of Wills if the supernatural creature is using Obfuscate or similar power.
                                That's Family Resemblance you're thinking of, seeing as Thicker Than Water just gives you an innate social lubricant for supernatural beings (and, as an extension of that, the ability to use limited Social Maneuvering on "feral" supernaturals).


                                Resident Lore-Hound
                                Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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