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  • #16
    Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
    There's already an addon sheet for Lair layout and Lair traits that you can easily merge into the core sheet pdf, which provides for points 1-3.
    I designed a lot of sheets with Mr. Gone ( if I recall now, circa 30 to this day ). One thing I learned on them all -
    'If the thing is very important to gameplay and shows even in slightest story about the game - even in shortest oneshot - it should be on 1st page'.
    Idea is to maximlize 1st page usability, not overbear players with needless section on first sight, etc. Lair Traits are those crucial thing. Family Ties are not so. And still Family Ties would simply be on 2nd page.

    Lair's Traits is much more important than Family Ties list in gameplay. When you ran oneshot game - you prepare only 1 page sheets, now full 4 page 'monsters', so new players will not be freaked out. Just see how are made official Ready Made characters. For example, I ran Beasts only sessions - that are core of game - and we dearly missed Traits. Family Ties are all good to be on second page as crossovers are encouraged, but not the heart of the system. Players all the time try to impose Traits, Family Ties can be made only when ST shows other-non Beasts monsters in story.

    Lair's Traits are crucial to game experience, as they open Primordial Pathways to Lair, impose combat modifiers with other and much, much more other mechanics related. That's why short list of them should be on 1st page of main sheet. Even minimalist, 1 page sheets should have Traits list on it. And even having full, proper list on another sheet is all good for it. Lair Traits >> Family Ties, simply

    Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
    Having somewhere to notate both the Horrors stats as well as the Beast's non-merged dream form would be amazing, though.
    Wait, what? Horrors Dream Form stats are not the same as human Hosts Dream Form? Are this only when Horror is Slumbering, that they are disconnected?

    If you want to see, here is Astral Traveler sheet for Mage on my design. I would simply used left column for Dream Forms, maybe use it once again if those are two different. Then you can make 1st page on Dream Forms, 2nd page on Lair.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 10-01-2018, 12:58 AM.


    My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
    LGBT+ in CoD games

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    • #17
      wyrdhamster No, Horror Form is much more potent. For one, they take the highest of their power/manipulation/resistance attributes as their base. Then, you get to spend 2 x Lair on Attributes in addition. So horror Form is quite powerful.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
        wyrdhamster No, Horror Form is much more potent. For one, they take the highest of their power/manipulation/resistance attributes as their base. Then, you get to spend 2 x Lair on Attributes in addition.
        Once spent those 2 x Lair Attributes dots are set in stone, yes? They do not change on each visit to Lair, or something? They only can be added if you rise Lair?

        With Beast's Players Guide Merit like Legendary Horror maybe it's good thing to also add Rank, Influences, Numina and Essence small sections to Horror's Sheet? It's not that all Beast have those, but once you have, it's useful to have them.

        If going with adding Ephemeral Entity stuff to Horror Sheet, I would based it on my Spirits-Totem one for 2E Werewolf. Later today I prepare mock sketch of it, so you can discuss usability of it here.


        My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
        LGBT+ in CoD games

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        • #19
          This is first draft of Beast's Horror Sheet ( with Human Dream Form section ). Fonts and borders will be changed in final version. Idea is to make 2 page Horror & Lair Sheet. with 1st page made by my and adding Lair Sheet as 2nd page.
          As you can see, I added also Lair's Chamber list with pointing on what locations they are based to easy track them on bottom. Rest of fan sheets just let you paint configurations of Chambers, not listing the Chambers themselves. If you like this - write a comment. If you have better idea what should be on the bottom of Horror Sheet - I'm all ears. I need to know when sheet idea is approved to send to Mr Gone.



          Last edited by wyrdhamster; 10-01-2018, 03:23 AM.


          My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
          LGBT+ in CoD games

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          • #20
            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
            This is first draft of Beast's Horror Sheet ( with Human Dream Form section ). Fonts and borders will be changed in final version. Idea is to make 2 page Horror & Lair Sheet. with 1st page made by my and adding Lair Sheet as 2nd page.
            As you can see, I added also Lair's Chamber list with pointing on what locations they are based to easy track them on bottom. Rest of fan sheets just let you paint configurations of Chambers, not listing the Chambers themselves. If you like this - write a comment. If you have better idea what should be on the bottom of Horror Sheet - I'm all ears. I need to know when sheet idea is approved to send to Mr Gone.



            I like this, but it would be nice to have more room to describe what Traits are active 'by default' in a specific Chamber, though IU suppose it could just go in the description field.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
              wyrdhamster For one, they take the highest of their power/manipulation/resistance attributes as their base.
              Beasts do this in their Dream Form, too, I believe. The only differences are the free attribute dots from Lair, and any bonuses from Legendary Horror (both of which are still very significant).
              Last edited by lnodiv; 10-01-2018, 08:41 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
                I like this, but it would be nice to have more room to describe what Traits are active 'by default' in a specific Chamber, though IU suppose it could just go in the description field.
                Can Traits be active on default in each Chamber, separately? From my reading of BtP corebook it was more like Horror can activate all Traits in particular Chamber, if he really likes. It's that each Chamber has one default Trait that gave the next Trait to general Horror's Trait's list. Thinking about it - maybe you are right here. Maybe there should be default Trait to each Chamber...


                My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                LGBT+ in CoD games

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
                  Beast's do this in their Dream Form, too, I believe.
                  The Horror being what it is, combined with the fact that the bonus Lair dots weren't part of the Horror's form in the initial draft and the Begotten's general tendency to treat exploring the Astral as more of a specialized pursuit, inclines me to think otherwise — it's hard to claim the minimal extra power of Being A Dragon when your self-image is still just as human as it is in the material world.

                  Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                  Can Traits be active on default in each Chamber, separately?
                  A Beast's Chambers can be subject to any combination of their Lair Traits at any time, and the Beast can choose to exclude individual guests from those Traits' effects without turning them off entirely.
                  Last edited by Satchel; 10-01-2018, 09:18 AM.


                  Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                  Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                    The Horror being what it is, combined with the fact that the bonus Lair dots weren't part of the Horror's form in the initial draft and the Begotten's general tendency to treat exploring the Astral as more of a specialized pursuit, inclines me to think otherwise
                    Yeah, I was mis-remembering the section, thinking that particular part was in the Dream Form section and not the Horror sidebar.

                    And to clarify what I mean about 'default' traits: I've had plenty of Makara, for example, that don't necessarily manifest Suffocating (to represent absolute flooding) in all of their Chambers, reserving it for only a few.

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                    • #25
                      As Beast newbie - Do Human Dream Form use highest in Power, Finesse and Resistant category - or not? Or maybe highest of two Attributes in those categories, like mages do?

                      Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
                      And to clarify what I mean about 'default' traits: I've had plenty of Makara, for example, that don't necessarily manifest Suffocating (to represent absolute flooding) in all of their Chambers, reserving it for only a few.
                      From how I read BtP corebook - Each not taken Chamber X in Primordial Dream has Trait Z ( like, for example, Burning Trait for the Volcano place ). Then comes Beast with Traits A & B already and as she has rise Lair Rating - she can take Chamber X to add to Lair. From there Beast can always invoke Traits A, B & Z, however, on default, each Chamber X scene still starts from Trait Z each scene with it. Because, you know, Lava in Volcano is Burning on general.
                      Last edited by wyrdhamster; 10-02-2018, 12:38 AM.


                      My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                      LGBT+ in CoD games

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                        As Beast newbie - Do Human Dream Form use highest in Power, Finesse and Resistant category - or not? Or maybe highest of two Attributes in those categories, like mages do?
                        It's explicitly just the Mental Attributes for regular humans and most other supernatural beings. It says this in the section that talks about Dream Form on page 99.


                        Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                        Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                          It's explicitly just the Mental Attributes for regular humans and most other supernatural beings. It says this in the section that talks about Dream Form on page 99.
                          Okay, wording on Horror's traits seems to imply that Beast ( as only human host ) uses rules for humans.

                          Originally posted by BtP, p. 99
                          A Beast’s Horror has a much larger, more potent presence within the Primordial Dream than others. The Horror uses the highest of the Beast’s Strength, Presence,or Intelligence as Power; Dexterity, Manipulation, or Wits as Finesse; and Stamina, Composure, or Resolve as Resistance.
                          For clarity sake only, I point that mages uses highest of two Attributes in particular category:
                          Originally posted by 'MtAw, p. 249
                          The dream form has the following Traits instead of the mage’s standard set:
                          • Power: Equal to the higher of Intelligence or Presence for mages, or just Intelligence for others. (...)
                          • Finesse: Equal to the higher of Wits or Manipulation for mages, or just Wits for others. (...)
                          • Resistance: Equal to the higher of Resolve or Composure for mages, or just Resolve for others. (...)


                          My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                          LGBT+ in CoD games

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                            From there Beast can always invoke Traits A, B & Z, however, on default, each Chamber X scene still starts from Trait Z each scene with it. Because, you know, Lava in Volcano is Burning on general.
                            Beasts have absolute control over what Lair traits manifest in any given Chamber of their Lair, though - so it follows that if they want whatever it's 'native' trait is on or off by default, it will be. If they want a trait to be active in a Chamber forever, it will be. If they don't want it active in a Chamber ever, it won't be.

                            The freedom to invoke traits in their Lair also extends to not invoking them.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
                              There's already an addon sheet for Lair layout and Lair traits that you can easily merge into the core sheet pdf, which provides for points 1-3.
                              Oh yea! I do have one of those.

                              Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
                              Having somewhere to notate both the Horrors stats as well as the Beast's non-merged dream form would be amazing, though.
                              Have to see what I can do sometime.



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