Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Nightmares & Dreamscapes: Incursions from the Primordial Dream

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Vent0 View Post

    Atavisms I'm pursuing with Caliban. Nightmares seem ideal for a more Lore-based Sorcery-like setup, seeing as they are already learned, and leverage a tie to the mortal realm. For Lair stuff, one would have to bond with and control a Chamber - possibly one they themselves created.

    But that's just my take on things.
    For the Nightmare splat, I could see them being a different interpretation of my old Primordial Sorcery thing - not worship of the Dark Mother, as in Obcasus Rites, but sorcery that draws on the Dream. Perhaps a 'primordial sorcerer' can learn to draw upon the power of the dream through formulae and such, each representing a specific 'hex' (i.e. Nightmare). I like the idea of them having Kinship (maybe rename it 'Bonds' or something?) and explicitly using those bonds to power and contact the Dream, though the resonance of 'monster'. Witches have their power-sources, after all.


    Comment


    • Originally posted by ajf115 View Post
      For the Nightmare splat, I could see them being a different interpretation of my old Primordial Sorcery thing - not worship of the Dark Mother, as in Obcasus Rites, but sorcery that draws on the Dream. Perhaps a 'primordial sorcerer' can learn to draw upon the power of the dream through formulae and such, each representing a specific 'hex' (i.e. Nightmare). I like the idea of them having Kinship (maybe rename it 'Bonds' or something?) and explicitly using those bonds to power and contact the Dream, though the resonance of 'monster'. Witches have their power-sources, after all.
      Exactly (I do fondly remember your Primordial Sorcery - but more options the better!). Nightmares do mesh well with a "Hex/Curse" style of magic, especially since they are communicated via eye contact (Evil Eye) or touch.


      Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
      Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Vent0 View Post

        Exactly (I do fondly remember your Primordial Sorcery - but more options the better!). Nightmares do mesh well with a "Hex/Curse" style of magic, especially since they are communicated via eye contact (Evil Eye) or touch.
        Aw, I'm flattered.

        In all seriousness, such a witch (and, for the record, I vote for Witch, Hexe or Hag as a name for this mini-splat) could work very well as a low-level antagonist, particularly if they can easily learn a wide variety of Nightmares. They'd work fantastically for a game with mortal PCs as a 'horror movie witch', or could be a potent ally for even a Beast. Something I like about the idea is the fact that Nightmares are free to use (apart from satiety expenditure, of course) and so the 'hexes' could function almost more like 'powers' than 'spells', if you see what I mean.


        Comment


        • Originally posted by ajf115 View Post
          Aw, I'm flattered.

          In all seriousness, such a witch (and, for the record, I vote for Witch, Hexe or Hag as a name for this mini-splat) could work very well as a low-level antagonist, particularly if they can easily learn a wide variety of Nightmares. They'd work fantastically for a game with mortal PCs as a 'horror movie witch', or could be a potent ally for even a Beast. Something I like about the idea is the fact that Nightmares are free to use (apart from satiety expenditure, of course) and so the 'hexes' could function almost more like 'powers' than 'spells', if you see what I mean.
          Oh, yeah. Keeping in mind the stipulation that only one Nightmare can be active on a target at once (baring exceptions like Fear is Contagious), and they still take an Instant Action to invoke.

          A Witch that goes around, studying fear itself, and how various monsters create/shape their own forms of fear would be a workable character in their own right.

          And nothing about their nature means they can't be combined with the other sub-splats - A Dark-lord Witch could have their home in their Lair, and a Caliban Witch would wield Atavisms and Nightmares as weapons (a Caliban Witch Dark-lord would basically be a Beast without the Horror).

          So... Start up another Thread for Primordial Witches?


          Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
          Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Vent0 View Post

            Oh, yeah. Keeping in mind the stipulation that only one Nightmare can be active on a target at once (baring exceptions like Fear is Contagious), and they still take an Instant Action to invoke.

            A Witch that goes around, studying fear itself, and how various monsters create/shape their own forms of fear would be a workable character in their own right.

            And nothing about their nature means they can't be combined with the other sub-splats - A Dark-lord Witch could have their home in their Lair, and a Caliban Witch would wield Atavisms and Nightmares as weapons (a Caliban Witch Dark-lord would basically be a Beast without the Horror).

            So... Start up another Thread for Primordial Witches?
            I probably won't be able to contribute too much for the next couple weeks (exams are EEEEVIL) but I'd love that thread to be a thing. And the idea of Nightmares being studyable is a great one. I'm imagining lines of inheritance of the knowledge, families with old lore from their however-many-great grandparents who walked as Giants or flew as Raptors in the old days, or a school or online course for 'dark magic'. I do think that becoming a Witch would require the Unseen Sense (Primordial Dream) Merit, whether from a mini-template like a Caliban, from being someone who's just in touch with the Dream or from some other source, though.


            Comment


            • Originally posted by ajf115 View Post
              I probably won't be able to contribute too much for the next couple weeks (exams are EEEEVIL) but I'd love that thread to be a thing. And the idea of Nightmares being studyable is a great one. I'm imagining lines of inheritance of the knowledge, families with old lore from their however-many-great grandparents who walked as Giants or flew as Raptors in the old days, or a school or online course for 'dark magic'. I do think that becoming a Witch would require the Unseen Sense (Primordial Dream) Merit, whether from a mini-template like a Caliban, from being someone who's just in touch with the Dream or from some other source, though.
              Well, the concept is fairly well defined already - the rules for Nightmares are already built, and they are basically "mortal with Nightmares". Use something similar to what I am doing with Caliban regarding Satiety and Integrity, and Hunger for Monstrous Beats?


              Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
              Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Vent0 View Post

                Well, the concept is fairly well defined already - the rules for Nightmares are already built, and they are basically "mortal with Nightmares". Use something similar to what I am doing with Caliban regarding Satiety and Integrity, and Hunger for Monstrous Beats?
                I think the thing with Satiety and Integrity works, but I don't think that they should have Hunger. Perhaps connect them more to the 'myth', the human part of the Dream. In other words, instead of feeding some monstrous part of themselves, they gain a greater understanding of the Dark Dream and its power by using the channel that humans already have for it - myth. It would serve to distinguish them from the Caliban too, of course.

                Perhaps upon becoming a Witch they choose a tradition or a myth for themselves and that's just how they learn new 'hexes'. One possible 'myth' might be the 'family of witches', so they can learn from family members or from grimoires penned by family members, but a teacher from another family would be useless to them. The most basic of these 'myths' (actually, how does 'Fable' sound as a name for this trait?) would of course be the 'student at the monster's foot', the Witch who learns directly from a Beast, and the 'dark dreamer', who learns unreliably via terrible visions of the Primordial Dream.

                Another option would be the 'dark but necessary knowledge' of a Hero, who learns the 'vile arts' to better counter their enemy.
                Last edited by ajf115; 05-28-2018, 10:12 AM.


                Comment


                • Originally posted by ajf115 View Post
                  I think the thing with Satiety and Integrity works, but I don't think that they should have Hunger. Perhaps connect them more to the 'myth', the human part of the Dream. In other words, instead of feeding some monstrous part of themselves, they gain a greater understanding of the Dark Dream and its power by using the channel that humans already have for it - myth. It would serve to distinguish them from the Caliban too, of course.

                  Perhaps upon becoming a Witch they choose a tradition or a myth for themselves and that's just how they learn new 'hexes'. One possible 'myth' might be the 'family of witches', so they can learn from family members or from grimoires penned by family members, but a teacher from another family would be useless to them. The most basic of these 'myths' (actually, how does 'Fable' sound as a name for this trait?) would of course be the 'student at the monster's foot', the Witch who learns directly from a Beast, and the 'dark dreamer', who learns unreliably via terrible visions of the Primordial Dream.

                  Another option would be the 'dark but necessary knowledge' of a Hero, who learns the 'vile arts' to better counter their enemy.
                  So, Legend and Life? The Mythical side of what they choose to represent, and who they still are?

                  I went with Hunger (and Feeding) simply as a means to get XP for raising Integrity back after spending it on the Satiety Expenditure effects. Otherwise using those options are an XP hole. I suppose they don't have to use them, though.


                  Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                  Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Vent0 View Post

                    So, Legend and Life? The Mythical side of what they choose to represent, and who they still are?

                    I went with Hunger (and Feeding) simply as a means to get XP for raising Integrity back after spending it on the Satiety Expenditure effects. Otherwise using those options are an XP hole. I suppose they don't have to use them, though.
                    Ah, I see. Well, perhaps we could include a system where they can make it harder for themselves to invoke the Nightmares (e.g. by getting reagents, ritual components, preparing and praying beforehand, sacrificing chickens etc, or by furthering the Fable they're connected to somehow in a way that complicates their lives (e.g. helping a Beast teacher Feed)) to get access to Satiety Expenditure without risking Integrity?


                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ajf115 View Post
                      Ah, I see. Well, perhaps we could include a system where they can make it harder for themselves to invoke the Nightmares (e.g. by getting reagents, ritual components, preparing and praying beforehand, sacrificing chickens etc, or by furthering the Fable they're connected to somehow in a way that complicates their lives (e.g. helping a Beast teacher Feed)) to get access to Satiety Expenditure without risking Integrity?

                      I dunno. For most mortals, furthering the fable or getting the kind of Reagents dark magic like this needs will probably risk integrity multiple times.


                      A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post


                        I dunno. For most mortals, furthering the fable or getting the kind of Reagents dark magic like this needs will probably risk integrity multiple times.
                        Fair enough.


                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Leliel View Post


                          Actually, let me start it up:

                          Entry #Whatever: Dark Lords


                          The Primordial Dream is many things, but above all else, it is a human dream. It is born of the place where, as the great Sir Terry Prachett once said, where the falling angel meets the rising ape. It's the zone where instinct and feeling become thought and true emotion, the unrefined material of the sentient soul.

                          Thinking it isn't shaped by what is purely fear of myth is a fool's errand. People may forever be driven by fear of being eaten despite humanity being the Platonic ideal of an apex predator, but fear of far more practical things generally takes precedent. Fear of bankruptcy, fear of loss, fear of the self, in certain circumstances. Often, that fear is of other people, which is quite possibly the most conflicted set of phobias in the cosmos. On the one hand, you have the fear tyrants have of their people, racists of their chosen scapegoat, the fear an abusive mother feels that her children will one day turn on her, never questioning why that is. On the other, you have the fear the oppressed feel towards oppressors-on the one hand, that fear can be a cage, but it also helps the people remember that this is not right. I am not happy. Fear is a smothering parent, but it is a parent. It wants to keep people safe.

                          Too much fear, though, and that parent becomes the accomplice with the monsters outside the door. Machiavelli was not actually that cold of a man, but he was incredibly insightful-love can be betrayed by people who put their own selfish needs first, but fear strikes down hero and villain alike. And where the fear the strong have for the weak and the weak have for the strong meet, in the Dream they can mate-and a human monster with no Horror is born.

                          "Dark Lord" are a somewhat cheeky name Beasts have for when, for lack of a better term, an otherwise normal human being with, at most, minor supernatural abilities develops a Lair. How it starts is always the same : initially, fear of a specific person grows so great that it forms free Chambers, which by nature are informed by the source's personality and actions. A cruel businessman who burns everything in his pursuit of an ever fatter pocketbook forms a golden temple to profit, with statues of him as the Great Seer of Capital looking down upon a juicy jeweled globe. An anarchist for whom the deaths of dozens is a sad necessity builds a fortress staffed by faceless soldiers, all proclaiming their lover for her revolution and its holy violence. Most of the time, that's where it ends-the Chamber is absorbed into a true Lair or dissolves, depending on circumstance. Sometimes, though, the Chambers keep forming; the businessman terrorizes his family too in the name of efficiency and ambition, the anarchist's acts of terror leave scars both physical and dreamlike. These Chambers are invariably quite similar, for the same reason a Begotten's Lair looks like it is all part of the same location; they're all issue of the same soul. And like a group of siblings, they congregate-space warps so that each can be reached from pathways between each other, no matter how far apart they are.

                          When they reach a critical mass-generally, about six or over separate Chambers is a good baseline-they get even closer, and merge into one, continuous landscape that exists everywhere the original Chambers did, though the largest mass is generally near the first Earth location that the initial Chamber was spun off of. This new, singular form develops a primal, instinctive intellect, not unlike an amoeba's. Like any animal, it wants to keep living and growing-and it instinctively knows that the only way to do that is if its unknowing parent keeps creating new Chambers. So it seeks them out, an eldritch stray finding a master. Much of the time, it fails and dissolves back into its components-it can't tell what its parent looks like to begin with, let alone find him from the other side of the Dream. But if the parent has enough fear himself, particularly of someone taking his Aspirations away, it can follow that scent instead, instinctively recognizing a smell like itself. If it does find him, all of his personal contribution to the dream congregates in a single Astral location as an item or a creature, embodying its owner's dearest wish-a substitute Heart, for a newly ascendant Dark Lord.

                          The transition from pure mortal to Dark Lord is a subtle one. In fact, it's something of a misnomer to call it a change at all-the Dark Lord doesn't have anything happen to her at all, not even mentally, because all of her powers are more like a dog doing tricks than any newfound capability on her part. She does, however, sense her new Lair (more properly known as a Principality) snuggle itself up to her soul, in much the same way one senses the presence of another person subconsciously without knowing you heard or saw anything. It feels...secure. The Dark Lord instinctively senses that her new symbiote is powerful and completely dedicated to protecting her and her interests from all comers. This suits the Principality fine, as the kind of people who become Dark Lords react to their new sense of security by performing more of the same actions that create Chambers in the first place; Chambers form, after all, only in response to actions that lead to another's loss of Integrity. Quite simply, the glowering lord of the castle doesn't get that way by being a spectacularly nice person.

                          For most, that's the end of it-most Dark Lords dismiss the feeling as anything but greater self-confidence and luck when it comes to pursuing their goals/escaping consequences for their actions. Many are undone by Beasts who both want the free Chambers from a destroyed Principality and to punish the arrogant jerk, while many more are undone by Heroes who scent their connection to the Dream and recognize, even if they aren't Beasts, they're still monsters who must be stopped (Beasts tend to take the Heroes' side in this-while they "ping" as family, Dark Lords are considered to be unwelcome thieves of the Dream's power for petty and irresponsible ends). Most of the time, they don't even need to be killed; Principalities are fragile things without a true Horror to regulate them, and if the Heart (also called a Crown), is taken, destroyed, or has the desire it represents renounced by the Dark Lord. the pseudo-Lair dissolves into its components. But humans are not always blind, willfully or otherwise-sometimes, a Dark Lord notices his dreams are oddly prophetic, or that his luck is preternaturally good. Sometimes he was already an occultist, or just possesses an intuitive knack for sensing the dream. Whatever the case, it's easy for a Dark Lord to project his mind into his Principality-it just requires a few minutes introspection, and most do it accidentally. Once they realize this strange, oddly compelling landscape is, in effect, their own dream, inevitably they soon realize the Dream can affect reality. Or spawn its own servants.

                          Wise Beasts should be very afraid. Dark Lords tend to deserve the name.

                          (Note: I will say there's probably a Merit for when the Lord realizes his desires are causing harm, but wants to turn them to good use).


                          Ok, thought up some basic mechanical ideas for this as a start. Tell me what you think.
                          • Roll Presence + Occult and spend a Willpower to impose a Lair Trait for a scene as a reflexive action
                          • Effective Rating of Lair 1 for number of Traits and per scene limit
                          • Can only use their powers within the physical inspiration for their Principality, but that area can be as large as block or a 20-story building
                          • Can by default only pick minor lair traits
                          • (Possibility: They initially get Minions and Maze for free instead)
                          • their lair traits are invisible in the material world
                          • every night, they roll Wits + Occult to see if their Dream Form goes to their own Oneiros or their Principality.
                          • Merits
                            • 2 dots: extra Minor Lair Trait. Up to a maximum of 5, not counting the initial two
                            • 4 dots: Thrall Lair Trait with power, finesse and resistance determined by Lowest trait in each category and one atavism related to what makes the Dark Lord feared. Solely serves to protect the Lair and cannot be imposed on the material. Can be purchased multiple times and does not count towards the lair trait limit. These are the minibosses.
                            • 5 dots: Non-Thrall Major Lair Trait. Only one and it counts towards the trait limit
                            • 1-5 dots: Extra Attribute points or Numina (2 dots per numina, activated through Willpower) for Dark Lord's Dream Form
                          • Lucid Dreamers can shape their Principality using standard Mortal Dreamshaping Rules (I assume those exist somewhere)
                          • Minor enemies are loyal Night Terrors


                          A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post



                            Ok, thought up some basic mechanical ideas for this as a start. Tell me what you think.
                            • Roll Presence + Occult and spend a Willpower to impose a Lair Trait for a scene as a reflexive action
                            • Effective Rating of Lair 1 for number of Traits and per scene limit
                            • Can only use their powers within the physical inspiration for their Principality, but that area can be as large as block or a 20-story building
                            • Can by default only pick minor lair traits
                            • (Possibility: They initially get Minions and Maze for free instead)
                            • their lair traits are invisible in the material world
                            • every night, they roll Wits + Occult to see if their Dream Form goes to their own Oneiros or their Principality.
                            • Merits
                              • 2 dots: extra Minor Lair Trait. Up to a maximum of 5, not counting the initial two
                              • 4 dots: Thrall Lair Trait with power, finesse and resistance determined by Lowest trait in each category and one atavism related to what makes the Dark Lord feared. Solely serves to protect the Lair and cannot be imposed on the material. Can be purchased multiple times and does not count towards the lair trait limit. These are the minibosses.
                              • 5 dots: Non-Thrall Major Lair Trait. Only one and it counts towards the trait limit
                              • 1-5 dots: Extra Attribute points or Numina (2 dots per numina, activated through Willpower) for Dark Lord's Dream Form
                            • Lucid Dreamers can shape their Principality using standard Mortal Dreamshaping Rules (I assume those exist somewhere)
                            • Minor enemies are loyal Night Terrors
                            Why not just keep it Wits + Occult? And let them try to add additional Chamber to expand Lair (up to 5)? Keep the rest of the rules the same if possible (this is, after all, their only schtick).


                            Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                            Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Vent0 View Post

                              Why not just keep it Wits + Occult? And let them try to add additional Chamber to expand Lair (up to 5)? Keep the rest of the rules the same if possible (this is, after all, their only schtick).

                              Wits + Occult sounds ok, though I put presence for Thematic reasons relating to how they tend to force their will on other people. Maybe resolve works better than either for that.

                              Creating new chambers should be hard. Remember, technically, only supernaturals can create Chambers. A mortal needs to have built up a personal legend through the kind of sustained sins that build up a legend around an area over the course of years. The legend and fear that gives them their power is intimately tied to a certain place that is their home ground, their fortress, their palace, to be frank, their Lair. And I just don't think their connection to the Dream is strong enough or pure enough, or maybe their legend is too personal, for them to call down their Lair in other places. So they could create new Chambers, but it's the work of a Story's worth of effort at least.

                              Also, we can't keep the rules exactly the same because they don't have Satiety to spend. I guess they could spend Integrity, but I'm not a fan of having all three minor templates mirror each other so directly.

                              EDIT: I guess the problem is that I kinda want them to be more of a Social or Mental Challenge in the material world like the Persona 5 villains, and Lair Traits are more direct than that by RAW.
                              Last edited by Master Aquatosic; 05-28-2018, 10:07 PM.


                              A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post



                                Ok, thought up some basic mechanical ideas for this as a start. Tell me what you think.
                                • Roll Presence + Occult and spend a Willpower to impose a Lair Trait for a scene as a reflexive action
                                • Effective Rating of Lair 1 for number of Traits and per scene limit
                                • Can only use their powers within the physical inspiration for their Principality, but that area can be as large as block or a 20-story building
                                • Can by default only pick minor lair traits
                                • (Possibility: They initially get Minions and Maze for free instead)
                                • their lair traits are invisible in the material world
                                • every night, they roll Wits + Occult to see if their Dream Form goes to their own Oneiros or their Principality.
                                • Merits
                                  • 2 dots: extra Minor Lair Trait. Up to a maximum of 5, not counting the initial two
                                  • 4 dots: Thrall Lair Trait with power, finesse and resistance determined by Lowest trait in each category and one atavism related to what makes the Dark Lord feared. Solely serves to protect the Lair and cannot be imposed on the material. Can be purchased multiple times and does not count towards the lair trait limit. These are the minibosses.
                                  • 5 dots: Non-Thrall Major Lair Trait. Only one and it counts towards the trait limit
                                  • 1-5 dots: Extra Attribute points or Numina (2 dots per numina, activated through Willpower) for Dark Lord's Dream Form
                                • Lucid Dreamers can shape their Principality using standard Mortal Dreamshaping Rules (I assume those exist somewhere)
                                • Minor enemies are loyal Night Terrors

                                Looks like an excellent start to me.


                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X