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Nightmares & Dreamscapes: Incursions from the Primordial Dream

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  • Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post

    Creating new chambers should be hard. Remember, technically, only supernaturals can create Chambers. A mortal needs to have built up a personal legend through the kind of sustained sins that build up a legend around an area over the course of years. The legend and fear that gives them their power is intimately tied to a certain place that is their home ground, their fortress, their palace, to be frank, their Lair. And I just don't think their connection to the Dream is strong enough or pure enough, or maybe their legend is too personal, for them to call down their Lair in other places. So they could create new Chambers, but it's the work of a Story's worth of effort at least.
    Well, all someone needs to do is suffer a Breaking Point in the area with the Beast (in this case, the Dark-lord) present. And for it to have a resonant Lair Trait, of course. As for calling down their Lair Traits in other places, they need a Full Tilt already existing, and they don't have any other options (like Atavisms) to help, nor Satiety to impose them regardless of a Tilt's presence.

    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    Also, we can't keep the rules exactly the same because they don't have Satiety to spend. I guess they could spend Integrity, but I'm not a fan of having all three minor templates mirror each other so directly.
    Without Satiety they can still invoke other Tilts, as long as at least one of their Lair Traits is already present in the scene. Satiety lets you bypass that requirement.

    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    EDIT: I guess the problem is that I kinda want them to be more of a Social or Mental Challenge in the material world like the Persona 5 villains, and Lair Traits are more direct than that by RAW.
    Fair enough.


    Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
    Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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    • Originally posted by Vent0 View Post

      Well, all someone needs to do is suffer a Breaking Point in the area with the Beast (in this case, the Dark-lord) present. And for it to have a resonant Lair Trait, of course. As for calling down their Lair Traits in other places, they need a Full Tilt already existing, and they don't have any other options (like Atavisms) to help, nor Satiety to impose them regardless of a Tilt's presence.
      .
      Fairly sure even Beasts need some sort of physical or narrative connection, even if it doesn't manifest as a full tilt, to even do the Satiety expenditure option. Still I really do think that there's power and thematics in tying them down to a physical place of power, but making them terrifyingly powerful in that space. They're not full Beasts, they are thieves of the power of the Primordial Dreams. Aside from their Principality, the Dream wants nothing to do with them and won't come down at their call for love, money or sustenance. They can expand their territory, but every new chamber should have to come from something they either did themselves or took the credit for and were believed.

      But after writing this, I'm seeing your point. If they can find a place similar enough to their place of power, with a little effort, they can try to force the world to believe that this is their lair, if only for the moment.

      How about this: Resolve + Occult for all rolls with an added 1 Willpower cost and the standard penalties from Beast for levels of similarity if they are outside an area where they themselves created a Chamber.


      A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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      • Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post

        Fairly sure even Beasts need some sort of physical or narrative connection, even if it doesn't manifest as a full tilt, to even do the Satiety expenditure option. Still I really do think that there's power and thematics in tying them down to a physical place of power, but making them terrifyingly powerful in that space. They're not full Beasts, they are thieves of the power of the Primordial Dreams. Aside from their Principality, the Dream wants nothing to do with them and won't come down at their call for love, money or sustenance. They can expand their territory, but every new chamber should have to come from something they either did themselves or took the credit for and were believed.

        But after writing this, I'm seeing your point. If they can find a place similar enough to their place of power, with a little effort, they can try to force the world to believe that this is their lair, if only for the moment.

        How about this: Resolve + Occult for all rolls with an added 1 Willpower cost and the standard penalties from Beast for levels of similarity if they are outside an area where they themselves created a Chamber.
        That sounds fine. They are obviously more dangerous on their "home turf", and are fearsome by mortal standards - they can summon infernos and stand untroubled amidst the flames (for example). But against a capable foe, like Beasts or Mages? They are vulnerable - they have no Horror to defend their Lair or especially Heart Chamber.
        Last edited by Vent0; 05-29-2018, 06:49 PM.


        Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
        Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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        • Beasts don't actually have to be there when the breaking point occured,as along as they have sufficently researched the event and internalized the fear. Chambers form easily. Claiming them is much, much harder.


          Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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          • Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
            Beasts don't actually have to be there when the breaking point occured,as along as they have sufficently researched the event and internalized the fear. Chambers form easily. Claiming them is much, much harder.

            Yes, but these Dark Lords are not Beasts. They harness only a fraction of the power of the Primordial Dream and every bit is connected to their own personal Legend.


            A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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            • Speaking of which, would giving the Dark Lords a Legend as a second Vice, instead of a Vice, or as a special Long-term Aspiration be too much?


              A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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              • Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
                Speaking of which, would giving the Dark Lords a Legend as a second Vice, instead of a Vice, or as a special Long-term Aspiration be too much?
                Voting for outright replacing the Vice & Virtue pair with Legend & Life, or Legend-as-Aspiration. Not sure about a second Vice.

                Oh, maybe they have a Vice and Legend, no Virtue nor Life? Emphasizes their villain-ness, especially if we’re keeping the Persona 5 bosses as main inspiration. “Blooming Villain” indeed.


                MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                • Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

                  Voting for outright replacing the Vice & Virtue pair with Legend & Life, or Legend-as-Aspiration. Not sure about a second Vice.

                  Oh, maybe they have a Vice and Legend, no Virtue nor Life? Emphasizes their villain-ness, especially if we’re keeping the Persona 5 bosses as main inspiration. “Blooming Villain” indeed.

                  I don't want to fully replace their ability to have a Virtue. For all the despicableness of the Persona 5 villains, each of them had recognizable human backstories for why they became so despicable. Not that these absolved them, but they weren't literal monsters with blue and orange morality. Legend as Aspiration then sounds good. that also ties into the idea of Persona 5 villains being defined by twisted desires and ambitions that drive them towards immoral behavior, with their humanity reasserting itself when someone takes away their desire.

                  EDIT: If we want to get really into Persona-esque stuff, we could even call it a Treasure Aspiration, or maybe a Twisted Aspiration.
                  Last edited by Master Aquatosic; 05-30-2018, 07:32 AM.


                  A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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                  • Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post


                    I don't want to fully replace their ability to have a Virtue. For all the despicableness of the Persona 5 villains, each of them had recognizable human backstories for why they became so despicable. Not that these absolved them, but they weren't literal monsters with blue and orange morality. Legend as Aspiration then sounds good. that also ties into the idea of Persona 5 villains being defined by twisted desires and ambitions that drive them towards immoral behavior and their humanity reasserting itself when someone takes away their desire.

                    EDIT: If we want to get really into Persona-esque stuff, we could even call it a Treasure Aspiration, or maybe a Twisted Aspiration.
                    Yeah, the focus on Desire as the driving force sounds better now that you mention it. For bonus points, it pairs nicely with Fear as another Primordial emotion.

                    “Treasure” (or Crown, I think someone said it) could replace the Heart Chamber. As in, instead of their Lair/Palace/Principality’s lynchpin being an entire Chamber, it’s just an object that can be snatched or destroyed with relative ease. Emphasizes both them being ‘lords,’ how they’re more vulnerable than Beasts.


                    EDIT: How well would the ability to impose Lair Traits on single victims without having to leverage environmental resonance, instead of an area, work as these guys base powers?
                    Last edited by 21C Hermit; 05-30-2018, 07:38 AM.


                    MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                    • Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

                      Yeah, the focus on Desire as the driving force sounds better now that you mention it. For bonus points, it pairs nicely with Fear as another Primordial emotion.

                      “Treasure” (or Crown, I think someone said it) could replace the Heart Chamber. As in, instead of their Lair/Palace/Principality’s lynchpin being an entire Chamber, it’s just an object that can be snatched or destroyed with relative ease. Emphasizes both them being ‘lords,’ how they’re more vulnerable than Beasts.


                      EDIT: How well would the ability to impose Lair Traits on single victims without having to leverage environmental resonance, instead of an area, work as these guys base powers?


                      I think Leliel's fluff already mentioned they have a Treasure-esque lynchpin object in their Principality, so we're in agreement there. i think though that their permanent Lair is all one really big Chamber, maybe even with a variant of Maze by default, with new Chambers either fading away at the normal rate, being stolen by Beasts, becoming a second area of power if enough of them are in close physical and narrative proximity or merging with the main Principality if close enough.

                      I'm still invested in the idea that they largely leverage invisible minor Lair Traits, but if we're building these guys as a full merit-template, having the ability to bring down a major lair trait as a desperation move could be a merit. The reason I want it to be minor Lair traits is because they do things like penalize perception or resolve or make you sick or lost. These are useful for keeping foes and victims off-balance in social combat, where these guys should be king. Of course, Nightmares would be even better for that, but I'm liking the idea of these guys as Lords of the palace (not sure if this is sunk cost fallacy though).

                      As for single victim Lair traits, I'd like to see what other people think on that.


                      A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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                      • These days between work and college stuff getting to a critical point I don't have any spare time, but I just wanted to pop in and say I'm liking what you're doing here, everyone. Both as a Beast and a Persona fan.

                        Sorry I can't contribute more, but all I'm doing lately is a repeating cycle of "wake up, go to work, study and go to bed".


                        Cinder's Comprehensive Collection of Creations - Homebrew Hub

                        I write about Beast: The Primordial a lot

                        This is what I'm working on

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                        • Originally posted by Cinder View Post
                          These days between work and college stuff getting to a critical point I don't have any spare time, but I just wanted to pop in and say I'm liking what you're doing here, everyone. Both as a Beast and a Persona fan.

                          Sorry I can't contribute more, but all I'm doing lately is a repeating cycle of "wake up, go to work, study and go to bed".

                          Don't worry. Positive affirmation is greatly appreciated. Sending positive vibes your way that all your hard work doing unfun stuff pays off in a way you like.

                          * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
                          * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
                          \0.0/ \0.0/ \0.0/ \0.0/ \0.0/ \0.0/

                          EDIT: 1 Like = 1 prayer to Nightmare Mom for the destruction of all obstacles in his path
                          Last edited by Master Aquatosic; 05-30-2018, 08:33 AM.


                          A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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                          • Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
                            Beasts don't actually have to be there when the breaking point occured,as along as they have sufficently researched the event and internalized the fear. Chambers form easily. Claiming them is much, much harder.
                            The only Chambers that form in this way require the presence of a supernatural being and a Lair Trait.


                            Resident Lore-Hound
                            Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                            • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                              The only Chambers that form in this way require the presence of a supernatural being and a Lair Trait.

                              During the time of the inciting incident to be specific.


                              A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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                              • Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post


                                During the time of the inciting incident to be specific.
                                Agreed, but that is oddly easy to achieve. Someone walks in on a vamp having a snack in a Poorly Lit allyway and fails that Integrity roll? Chamber. Or no one walks in and the leech drains a person dry and fails the Humanity roll, again Chamber. Iron Master werewolf hunt gone wrong can easily create a Chamber. A Promethean enters torment and a crowd ends up lynching them in the throws of Disquiet and someone doesn't make the roll. It is not hard to have a supernatural present and only slightly harder to tie them directly to the loss of Integrity.

                                Heck, winter and summer can provide Lair trait tilts depending on where you live.


                                Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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