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  • Excuse me, I was wondering if it’s correct that Unfettered Horrors of high-Lair Beasts (Lair 6+) will become astral gods (Rank 6+), even though they are roughly at best as powerful as Rank 5 ephemeral entities while in their Lairs (if calculating their attributes as described in core rulebook p.99).

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    • Originally posted by agrelletto View Post
      Excuse me, I was wondering if it’s correct that Unfettered Horrors of high-Lair Beasts (Lair 6+) will become astral gods (Rank 6+), even though they are roughly at best as powerful as Rank 5 ephemeral entities while in their Lairs (if calculating their attributes as described in core rulebook p.99).
      Not only that but they can also reach Rank 9 or 10, which is above the most powerful known gods who use the Rank system. To put it into perspective: Luna and Helios, the two most powerful entities in Werewolf: The Forsaken, are Rank 8. The Aeons, the Astral gods of the Arcana in Mage: The Awakening, are Rank 8. The scale could've basically just ended at 8.
      And at the other end of the scale we can end up with Unfettered Horrors with Rank 1, which is actually less than the Rank of larval Horrors who's not yet gone through with the Devouring (Player's Guide says they are Rank 2).

      Unfettered Horrors are a cool concept and otherwise I do like the rules for them, but equating Lair with Rank was extremely ill-thought-out. If I were to redesign it, I would've made it something like this:
      Lair 1 = Rank 2 (the Horror neither gains nor loses power this early)
      Lair 2-3 = Rank 3
      Lair 4-5 = Rank 4
      Lair 6-7 = Rank 5
      Lair 8-9 = Rank 6
      Lair 10 = Rank 7


      Bloodline: The Stygians
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      • Originally posted by Tessie View Post

        Not only that but they can also reach Rank 9 or 10, which is above the most powerful known gods who use the Rank system. To put it into perspective: Luna and Helios, the two most powerful entities in Werewolf: The Forsaken, are Rank 8. The Aeons, the Astral gods of the Arcana in Mage: The Awakening, are Rank 8. The scale could've basically just ended at 8.
        And at the other end of the scale we can end up with Unfettered Horrors with Rank 1, which is actually less than the Rank of larval Horrors who's not yet gone through with the Devouring (Player's Guide says they are Rank 2).

        Unfettered Horrors are a cool concept and otherwise I do like the rules for them, but equating Lair with Rank was extremely ill-thought-out. If I were to redesign it, I would've made it something like this:
        Lair 1 = Rank 2 (the Horror neither gains nor loses power this early)
        Lair 2-3 = Rank 3
        Lair 4-5 = Rank 4
        Lair 6-7 = Rank 5
        Lair 8-9 = Rank 6
        Lair 10 = Rank 7
        Thank you very much! The chart you provide is great!

        Since Death, as one of the mightiest beings in Temenos, is Rank 7, it seems that astral beings born from collective consciousness of humanity won’t be as powerful as souls of celestial bodies and universal phenomena (and thus their maximum power scale is Rank 7). I don’t know if this statement still applies in second edition.

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        • So regarding the information revealed in the PG on the Primordial Dream...

          Was it that the Primordial Dream, if you went further in enough, lead to the Temenos, that the Primordial Dream and Temenos were one and the same, or something else?

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          • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
            So regarding the information revealed in the PG on the Primordial Dream...

            Was it that the Primordial Dream, if you went further in enough, lead to the Temenos, that the Primordial Dream and Temenos were one and the same, or something else?
            The Primordial Dream is in the Temenos, but Beasts and people led by a Beast navigate it in a geographically prosaic fashion compared to the Bright Dream beyond the Day.

            The Temenos is the Dark Dream and the Bright Dream minus Oneiroi; the Bright Dream is Oneiroi and the Temenos minus the Primordial Dream. There's a Venn diagram at work here, but nothing in that continuum is in the Mother's Land/Anima Mundi (which Beasts experience largely as just the Dreamtime).


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            Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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