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Ask a simple question, get a simple answer - Beast edition.

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  • Ask a simple question, get a simple answer - Beast edition.

    This feels like a silly question, but how exactly do you/others access your lair? It talks about giving people access to your lair without you being present, and the "Hold the Door" section talks about your Lair having "entrances" but I don't see any further explanation about how they work. Is the primary way you access your lair by primordial pathways? That seems really weird because when you do that everyone around you gets pulled into your lair, so I don't see how granting permission comes into it. The in game example of how primordial pathways works also implies that you have to leave the current chamber you are in if you want to actually stay in your lair when the pathways closes, which is just strange.

  • Primordial newcomer
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    Yup. As literal monsters out of nightmare whose powers are themed around their home-field advantage, most Beasts don't play fair, but the Eshmaki in particular are built to make people jump at shadows.

    The introduction of the Talassi and the Inguma makes it a little less useful as a simplest-terms metric, but the Captors coming at you from either side rounds out the straightforward exterior set, and the Outsiders being fear-from-inside-other-people makes for a nice complement to the Namtaru's fear-from-inside-yourself.
    I do like the comparison you draw with the Inguma and Namtaru

    Admittedly, I tend to think of Eshmaki too much as in terms of "darkness=stealth" rather than the fear of darkness representing the idea of hidden, unknown dangers that lurk just beyond us, hoping we get close (or us hoping they dont come out).

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
    So it feeds into the idea that the no matter how much much damage you do to the monster, it will simply retreat back into the unknowable dark, and come back as if you did nothing. It's less "it doesn't matter what I do, it just tanks through it" and more "every damn time we get close to killing it, it just runs away and comes back as fine as ever. And none of us are brave enough to follow it into the dark". Correct?
    Yup. As literal monsters out of nightmare whose powers are themed around their home-field advantage, most Beasts don't play fair, but the Eshmaki in particular are built to make people jump at shadows.

    Also, that's a nice way of denoting them, I've never thought of them that way
    The introduction of the Talassi and the Inguma makes it a little less useful as a simplest-terms metric, but the Captors coming at you from either side rounds out the straightforward exterior set, and the Outsiders being fear-from-inside-other-people makes for a nice complement to the Namtaru's fear-from-inside-yourself.

    Leave a comment:


  • Primordial newcomer
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    I'm fond of denoting the core five Families in terms of their relative position, e.g. the Ugallu are fears from above, the Makara are tears from below, etc.

    The Anakim are frontal sorts of terror. The Eshmaki are fears from behind.

    The Lurkers are frightening because they come out of your blindspot and you don't know how long you can evade them -- they're arguably the best-fit Family for the Hunger for Prey, and being able to resume pursuit an arbitrary amount of time after taking a mortal blow feeds into that.
    So it feeds into the idea that the no matter how much much damage you do to the monster, it will simply retreat back into the unknowable dark, and come back as if you did nothing. It's less "it doesn't matter what I do, it just tanks through it" and more "every damn time we get close to killing it, it just runs away and comes back as fine as ever. And none of us are brave enough to follow it into the dark". Correct?

    Also, that's a nice way of denoting them, I've never thought of them that way

    Leave a comment:


  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
    Just a little thematic question. So Eshmaki, fear of the darkness, of the horrors in the darkness. How does Relentless hunter fit in as a Family Atavism? I have trouble seeing how it's not Anakim instead
    I'm fond of denoting the core five Families in terms of their relative position, e.g. the Ugallu are fears from above, the Makara are fears from below, etc.

    The Anakim are frontal sorts of terror. The Eshmaki are fears from behind.

    The Lurkers are frightening because they come out of your blindspot and you don't know how long you can evade them -- they're arguably the best-fit Family for the Hunger for Prey, and being able to resume pursuit an arbitrary amount of time after taking a mortal blow feeds into that.
    Last edited by Satchel; 03-16-2020, 08:30 PM. Reason: Fixing mobile autocorrect.

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  • Primordial newcomer
    replied
    Just a little thematic question. So Eshmaki, fear of the darkness, of the horrors in the darkness. How does Relentless hunter fit in as a Family Atavism? I have trouble seeing how it's not Anakim instead

    Leave a comment:


  • Deinos
    replied
    Extended actions are such an utter nuisance in cofd, that encourage optimizing as hard as you can, that I am all for taking whatever advantage you can by RAW to make the tediousness go by faster.

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  • Paradim
    replied
    Originally posted by Scriptorian View Post

    Because an ability to "manage deadlines" doesn't seem like it would help you call down the eldritch powers of the Dark Mother any faster. There's no other mechanical means of speeding up the process, so it'd be weird for this one dot mundane merit to cut the time in half. And I'm always wary of allowing a ability obviously meant for mundane activities to be used for supernatural ones. Similar reservations apply for the Patient merit.

    And now I'm picturing the Dark Mother looming over an initiate like "It's okay pumpkin, take all the time you need!"

    Edit: Just occurred to me that there is in fact a built in way of speeding up the rites...namely having a better die pool so you finish in fewer rolls. Maybe I'm just overly suspicious of my own power-gaming tendencies.

    I wouldn't worry about it too much. If it is an extended roll, then I absolutely would allow Merits that affect extended rolls to affect these rolls. If there is no calling out of specific exceptions...

    And yeah, I can see an ability to "manage deadlines" as helping. I don't strictly see it as "calling down the eldritch powers of the Dark Mother faster" so much as simply being more efficient with your approach. You get any equipment you need lined up and ready. Any sacrifices are already acquired. You've got written notes to help keep yourself organized and prepared on what steps to take.

    Seems like simple project management to me. Yeah, I'd let my players make use of those merits for these rites.

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  • Scriptorian
    replied
    Originally posted by Paradim View Post


    ....Why not? Legitimate question back.
    Because an ability to "manage deadlines" doesn't seem like it would help you call down the eldritch powers of the Dark Mother any faster. There's no other mechanical means of speeding up the process, so it'd be weird for this one dot mundane merit to cut the time in half. And I'm always wary of allowing a ability obviously meant for mundane activities to be used for supernatural ones. Similar reservations apply for the Patient merit.

    And now I'm picturing the Dark Mother looming over an initiate like "It's okay pumpkin, take all the time you need!"

    Edit: Just occurred to me that there is in fact a built in way of speeding up the rites...namely having a better die pool so you finish in fewer rolls. Maybe I'm just overly suspicious of my own power-gaming tendencies.
    Last edited by Scriptorian; 03-11-2020, 12:11 AM.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Paradim View Post
    ....Why not? Legitimate question back.
    Possibly because there's a note in VtR 2e's Blood Sorcery section that specifies that unless a Merit that applies to extended actions specifically calls out blood sorcery it doesn't benefit the roll.

    If that is the case, it's worth noting that blood sorcery is the only form of extended ritual magic so far that adds a third component to its roll; Obcasus Rites have very stringent requirements for where they can be performed, come with built-in penalties that need a variety of circumstances to mitigate, and run on a two-component dicepool that uses the lower of two Skills; Shadow Rites likewise only use a two-component dicepool (albeit a more flexible one) and automatically fucks up their interactions with the Shadow for a bit if the performance is interrupted.

    Other gamelines' ritual magic is resolved as an instant action with a time investment, but between Vampire, Werewolf, and Beast, there's little to indicate that the gameline where ritual magic is in and of itself a religious practice is going to have particularly much go bad if you can spend a little longer or work a little faster in the consecrated space of the temple.

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  • Paradim
    replied
    Originally posted by Scriptorian View Post
    Alright, my inner power-gamer keeps bugging me about this:

    Obcasus Rites probably should not benefit from mundane merits like Patient or Good Time Management, correct?

    ....Why not? Legitimate question back.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scriptorian
    replied
    Alright, my inner power-gamer keeps bugging me about this:

    Obcasus Rites probably should not benefit from mundane merits like Patient or Good Time Management, correct?

    Leave a comment:


  • Scriptorian
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    What are and where are in Beast Player's Guide are Inverted?

    Page 161. It's a weird Inheritance where the Beast puts their Horror in a half-dead state so that they don't have to feed it any more, but they keep some of it's powers so they can hunt other Beasts. They end up as a weird Beast-Hero hybrid.
    Last edited by Scriptorian; 02-24-2020, 04:14 PM.

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  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    What are and where are in Beast Player's Guide are Inverted?

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  • Bunyip
    replied
    Originally posted by Scriptorian View Post
    They lose their Satiety Pool, should that mean they're reduced to just the base Attribute when using Nightmares? This feels like Nightmares would be so weak as to almost be not worth mentioning...
    Yes, just the Attribute.

    Could they acquire new Nightmares and/or Atavisms? I think learning Nightmares makes sense, but the Horror doesn't seem likely to undergo the mutation necessary to gain new Atavisms while it's busy being impaled.
    No.

    The obvious meaning is that they can't add new Chambers, but does it also mean they can never increase their Lair rating?
    Correct.

    Kinship isn't mentioned at all. Should they still be able to establish Family-Ties and use Kinship abilities not dependent on Satiety expenditure?
    No, their Horror is almost dead and their connection to the Primordial Dream all but gone.

    Is the idea of an Inverted player-character problematic? (Yes, the answer is yes .)
    Unless the character is in a very particular type of game with a specific story around wanting to murder as many Beasts as possible before dying in a blaze of glory (or forgotten in a back alley), yes.

    The Inverted aren’t really any kind of ‘win’ condition, except for the personal satisfaction of refusing to follow the burdens upon you and choosing your own, very brief and outnumbered, path. Any player who wants to run an Inverted should have a serious conversation with their ST about what they’re looking for in the game.

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