Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Abyss reactions

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Joker View Post
    The Abyss is thematically isn't so much destruction and negation, it's things that aren't a natural part of reality, things that should not be and that are inherently incompatible with the way things are.
    If you then have something that is a natural part of our reality come up to an Abyssal and go 'hey, brother, we are connected and you are totally and objectively part of my family, let's hang out and eat some dudes" that kind of defeats the Abyss' most important themes even worse than being kin would destroy Demons'.
    At least I'm pretty sure that's why Dave doesn't count Abyssal phenomena as kin.
    Right. The problem is that regardless of how a given Abyssal entity feels about Beasts in general or particular, the primary importance of Kinship is to Beasts themselves and their own perceptions of the world.

    You don't need to be able to completely understand something from the great cosmic womb of unbeing to be able to feel a connection to its destructive aspects and piece together reasons why it is dangerous; people fear and invoke the Abyss regardless of its unpinnable nature. The creatures of the Abyss manifest in ways that fit into the sensory framework of experience regardless of their deeper incomprehensibility, because they manifest in the Phenomenal World — the Begotten truck in ominous phenomena does not cease to have a point of reference just because there's an ultimate unknowable on the other end of the line.

    Making them not-kin has more consequences than just disqualifying them from the more active Kinship abilities, like rendering a manifested gulmoth as unremarkable to Begotten senses as an unmanifested one. It's a blind spot that doesn't have the same motif of disconnection and compartmentalization and mundanity that the Machine does to justify cutting an entire class of supernatural entity out of an explicitly nigh-universal sense for the immediate presence of supernatural entities. It's one thing to put kinship with "the Abyss" off the table (you might as well try to claim Kinship with "the Wyrd" or "the Shadow") and another to cut out "any Abyssal entity."


    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
      The creatures of the Abyss manifest in ways that fit into the sensory framework of experience regardless of their deeper incomprehensibility, because they manifest in the Phenomenal World — the Begotten truck in ominous phenomena does not cease to have a point of reference just because there's an ultimate unknowable on the other end of the line.
      They are not ultimate unknowables (in fact, sometimes that they are very much knowable is the very essence of why they are dangerous, as with the memetic abyssal math), they are things that don't belong, things that are defined by not being connected to the things of the phenomenal world. The anti-symbols to the truth-symbols of the Supernal.You can't connect them to the world via kinship without making them belong in the world in a way that is counter to their very being. An abyssal intrusion is not just an "ominous phenomena".
      To use a Mage centric explanation (which is the only one that matters, as the Abyss is a Mage specific antagonist) kinship is a supernatural phenomenon that works because the supernal symbols that are the source code of the universe describe it's ability to connect to the it's symbols to those that describe other supernatural. But abyssal phenomena, including those you'd describe as an "Abyssal entity" is anti-symbols spilling into the phenomenal world, and there is no way for the supernal representation of the kinship bond to connect to the abyssal anti symbols of whatever abyssal thing is warping the world next to the Beast in question. An "Abyssal entity" is not a supernatural creature in the common sense, it's anti-symbols that warp reality that happen to take a form that might visually look like a monster, but that is incidental to its nature.

      Again, you can't make Abyssal entities kin without destroying the thematic coherence, and from the PoV of the Mage Line's developer his primary responsibiliy is the the thematic coherence of the things that make up Mage. If that means ruling that Abyssal creatures aren't kin, then that's what he needs to do, because Beasts are of lesser importance than the line he is responsible for.

      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
      It's a blind spot that doesn't have the same motif of disconnection and compartmentalization and mundanity that the Machine does to justify cutting an entire class of supernatural entity out of an explicitly nigh-universal sense for the immediate presence of supernatural entities.
      Something doesn't need to have an identical motif to Demons to have a one that justifies not making them kin.
      Abyssal entities have a coherent justification for why they aren't kin, nothing more is required.
      Last edited by Joker; 11-08-2016, 06:47 PM.


      My custom legacy - The Disciples of Rathma - Life/Death focused Moros/Thyrsus Legacy, comments appreciated

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Joker View Post
        They are not ultimate unknowables (in fact, sometimes that they are very much knowable is the very essence of why they are dangerous, as with the memetic abyssal math), they are things that don't belong, things that are defined by not being connected to the things of the phenomenal world.
        They're not defined at all at their roots. That's part of the point. That's what I mean by "ultimate unknowable" — there is no comprehensible being at the heart of the Annunaki, and that presents no obstacle to their ability to manifest in the Phenomenal World their home serves to occlude.

        The anti-symbols to the truth-symbols of the Supernal.You can't connect them to the world via kinship without making them belong in the world in a way that is counter to their very being. An abyssal intrusion is not just an "ominous phenomena".
        Ominous phenomena — phenomena that present omens of danger, i.e. warning signs — are what the fear-response of the Primordial Dream keys off of. It's why Lair Traits are universally negative phenomena that Horrors are immune to by association. Abyssal phenomena enter the world, are usually dangerous, and usually betray that dangerousness through the marks of erosion and corruption evinced by their manifested forms. They don't not-belong in the world enough to be completely barred from entering it in a state that registers to mortal senses and relates to their inner nature, and that is nine tenths of Kinship's practical root basis.

        To use a Mage centric explanation (which is the only one that matters, as the Abyss is a Mage specific antagonist) kinship is a supernatural phenomenon that works because the supernal symbols that are the source code of the universe describe it's ability to connect to the it's symbols to those that describe other supernatural.
        Kinship connects monsters through sympathy, which is one of the handful of things that Abyssal entities use like any other supernatural being — it's why the acamoth corrupt dreams and significant or repeated Paradox risks the creation of an Abyssal Verge. Kinship is "these things are alike and their natures align somewhat through that likeness."

        But abyssal phenomena, including those you'd describe as an "Abyssal entity" is anti-symbols spilling into the phenomenal world, and there is no way for the supernal representation of the kinship bond to connect to the abyssal anti symbols of whatever abyssal thing is warping the world next to the Beast in question.
        It has no problem connecting to the world around it to warp it. The Abyss is everywhere and can blossom forth from pretty much anything, and despite Begotten claims that similarity implies a common root there's not much necessary shared ancestry in Anumerus and the Namtaru who's making nine an unlucky number in their hometown both having "bad-news things tied to numbers" to associate them.

        An "Abyssal entity" is not a supernatural creature in the common sense, it's anti-symbols that warp reality that happen to take a form that might visually look like a monster, but that is incidental to its nature.
        The effect Abyssal entities have on the world around them is a consequence of their nature being antithetical to Phenomenal reality in a pure form. They heal and gain Essence from the breakdown of mortal Integrity and their resonance warps their surroundings to become more like the portion of the Abyss that they hail from.

        If that means ruling that Abyssal creatures aren't kin, then that's what he needs to do, because Beasts are of lesser importance than the line he is responsible for.
        Kinship is literally only important to Beast at all and there are means of establishing that you won't see Beasts forming Family Ties with gulmoth without making an un-creature formed of befouled magic fail to ping the "spot unveiled supernatural creatures" ability without a veil, particularly given that Kinship applies at only two levels and one of them goes away by going away, which is incredibly easy for something whose home de facto cannot exist.

        Something doesn't need to have an identical motif to Demons to have a one that justifies not making them kin.
        When that motif is "the destructively-oriented splat that has most of their powerset work through sympathy and supernatural connections can sometimes detect but not connect with the renegade processes of a sterile and shuttered machine-god-of-no-mythos that offers a wholly-impersonal and task-oriented framework of supernatural power that has to actually assemble its outward spread rather than spilling it everywhere and dealing with the fallout as it comes," there's not much identical in "the contagious entropy of occult meaning in the universe, which resonates with the failure of supernatural bindings and the corrosion of reality and the primordial beings from the beginning of time and gets many of its connections to the world through those patterns, isn't going to have common cause with a race of befoulers and destroyers and thieves and oath-entrappers spawned from an ever-changing progenitor-beast who is variously identified with figures such as Lilith, Pandora, the titanic Mother of Monsters, and assorted other entities tied intimately to the fear of the unknown and/or unknowable."


        Resident Sanguinary Analyst
        Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

        Comment

        Working...
        X