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How do Changelings and Mages feel about each other?

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  • How do Changelings and Mages feel about each other?

    I was curious if any of the official books ever said anything on this topic, and if not what do you guys think about it: how do Changelings and Mages feel about each other? Under what circumstances do you think it would be most likely for them to be friends or enemies? Do Mages connected to the watchtower in Arcadia (Acanthus) tend to have a different relationship with Changelings than the other four types of mages? Also, I assume Changelings are not considered "Sleepers", even though they are not Awakened.

  • #2
    I'm sure there's something buried somewhere in the different supplements- Changeling has quite a few of them. Changelings for sure count a Sleepwalkers- anyone with a single Supernatural Merit does, so Major Templates easily qualify. As far as I can recall off the top of my head, the conversation usually involves a lot of cross-talking, seeing as the two Arcadias are only superficially and thematically similar, but both Mages and Changelings tend to not be aware of this fact. At least not initially. This can lead to a good deal of hilarity.

    Mage/Changeling: Yeah, I went to Arcadia and came out changed. There were shenanigans involving Fate and screwy timelines. Wait, you too?

    Changeling to Mage: How did you get out?

    Mage to Changeling: How can I get back?

    Changeling to Mage: Why on earth would you ever want to do that?!

    Extra hilarity ensues if the Mage actually tries to walk to Arcadia/Faerie through the Hedge once they find out they can do that. They would likely rather quickly realize this isn't what they signed up for... and then find that they have no conventional way out. Sure, with a Fate spell they could presumably open a Hedge Gate much as a Spirit spell can open a Locus/Verge and a Death spell can open an Avernian Gateway, but first they have to find one first.

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    • #3
      It depends on the individuals in question. For some changelings a mages ability to pretty much reshape reality at will might seem suspiciously similar to what the Gentry were doing in Arcadia, and the use of the same name to describe a similar realm of power for mages doesn't really help their case here. A lot of mages also tend to be overly curious/nosy about new supernatural things, so that might also get on some changelings nerves.

      That said, assuming they get past any misunderstandings and whatnot, they're quite capable of functioning on friendly terms. A mage could prove quite the valuable asset given their ability spread, especially considering a lot of them asking relatively little (from the changelings perspective) in return; small trinkets, permission to ask questions about various things concerning changeling nature and being allowed to observe/study their powers/habits.
      Last edited by Ashenrogue; 11-29-2016, 11:37 AM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Arcanist View Post
        I'm sure there's something buried somewhere in the different supplements- Changeling has quite a few of them. Changelings for sure count a Sleepwalkers- anyone with a single Supernatural Merit does, so Major Templates easily qualify. As far as I can recall off the top of my head, the conversation usually involves a lot of cross-talking, seeing as the two Arcadias are only superficially and thematically similar, but both Mages and Changelings tend to not be aware of this fact. At least not initially. This can lead to a good deal of hilarity.

        Mage/Changeling: Yeah, I went to Arcadia and came out changed. There were shenanigans involving Fate and screwy timelines. Wait, you too?

        Changeling to Mage: How did you get out?

        Mage to Changeling: How can I get back?

        Changeling to Mage: Why on earth would you ever want to do that?!

        Extra hilarity ensues if the Mage actually tries to walk to Arcadia/Faerie through the Hedge once they find out they can do that. They would likely rather quickly realize this isn't what they signed up for... and then find that they have no conventional way out. Sure, with a Fate spell they could presumably open a Hedge Gate much as a Spirit spell can open a Locus/Verge and a Death spell can open an Avernian Gateway, but first they have to find one first.
        Are there two Arcadias? The description in the Mage book sounds like the Changeling Arcadia to me?

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        • #5
          The first thing worth noting is that no Acanthus would mistake the Arcadia they Awakened to with the Arcadia the changelings escape from-the thorns around the Lunargent tower are very notably cracks in time, silvery, glowing cracks of branching, clawing possibility. Changelings might not pick up on that right away, but give a mage time to talk and they'll be able to pick up on the differences.

          Beyond that, it depends on the nature of the relationship. Changelings are a good source of Mysteries(most small scale, sure, but still), but aren't too keen to being looked into. That said, they do tend to keep their eyes open for weird shit too, in the interest of raising as many tin-cans on string they can to let them know when the True Fae are coming, so investigating strange sites is something they have in common, and Kenning can, in a lot of certain ways, can provide information that Mage Sight doesn't do. While they might clash over mundane resources like anyone else, mages and changelings occult resources don't immediately overlap, although mage's abilities to tie their spells to sleepwalkers can be lead egregious interventions if those walkers turn out to be someone from the changeling's past. On the other hand, mages are good people to have in your corner, and they probably qualify for Bargains.

          As has been said, it largely depends on the nature of their relationship, how it was established and the circumstances that define it. There's reason for them to poke into one another's business, and to be enemies, but there's also just as much cause for some good alliances, and even more cause for them to mostly keep to themselves, barring those times they bump into each other.


          Sean K.I.W. Steele, Onyx Path Freelancer
          Working on:Night Horrors: Enemy Action
          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

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          • #6
            Originally posted by gadren View Post

            Are there two Arcadias? The description in the Mage book sounds like the Changeling Arcadia to me?
            Second Edition largely has done away with the cosmology teasing, to a point where it's definitive unless you really want it to be the opposite-Changeling and Mage Arcadia's are two completely different places.

            It helps that Mage Arcadia is not a place at all.


            Sean K.I.W. Steele, Onyx Path Freelancer
            Working on:Night Horrors: Enemy Action
            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

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            • #7
              It can almost be a place if a Lustrum is projected in the area, which is what the Watchtowers do, but yes, cArcadia and mArcadia are explicitly not the same place in 2e.

              (This hasn't stopped me from making them related places in my games, though.)

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              • #8
                Well I seriously doubt they're not related in any way, seeing as there's too much symbolic overlap, but that's kind of like saying the Shadow and the Hedge are the same place because they're both places where reflections of the real world become distorted based on human feelings.

                That being said, ArcaneArts didn't you do up a really pretty cosmology map that is posted somewhere on the forums where most of the Invisible Realms are Fallen reflections of Emanation Realms? I ended up saving the image when I stumbled across it, because it was gorgeous, but I have no idea how to attach images, and don't want to step on your toes by posting it.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Arcanist View Post
                  Well I seriously doubt they're not related in any way, seeing as there's too much symbolic overlap, but that's kind of like saying the Shadow and the Hedge are the same place because they're both places where reflections of the real world become distorted based on human feelings.

                  That being said, ArcaneArts didn't you do up a really pretty cosmology map that is posted somewhere on the forums where most of the Invisible Realms are Fallen reflections of Emanation Realms? I ended up saving the image when I stumbled across it, because it was gorgeous, but I have no idea how to attach images, and don't want to step on your toes by posting it.
                  No. I posted the work of someone else that was very pretty and god-awfully wrong. I did it because it was pretty and we could all chat about how wrong it was. Led to some fun story ideas built on the fact it was so wrong.

                  I neither do nor believe in cosmology maps at all.

                  EDIT: Here's where the joking happens.
                  Last edited by ArcaneArts; 11-29-2016, 06:06 PM.


                  Sean K.I.W. Steele, Onyx Path Freelancer
                  Working on:Night Horrors: Enemy Action
                  The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

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                  • #10
                    Also, the Arcadia Question has been a pain in the ass of Changeling so damn long. Mage never gave much of a shit about it, but Changeling wasted so much text on the cocktease, pages that could have honestly been put to better use for other things. Mage's team began pushing to keep their Arcadia seperate since Imperial Mysteries(where honestly the problem was solved anyways), and when Changeling went into development, one of the most emphatic footnotes in the initial development was "Changeling Arcadia is not Mage Arcadia. We are not wasting words on this again."*

                    Truthfully, from the Mage perspective, Changeling Arcadia is a place that resonates with pretty much all of the Supernal Realms anyways. Hell, Pandemonium is equally as strong a factor in cArcadia as mArcadia is. In my own headcanon, a Mage is going to need Fate+Mind for pretty much any digging into the area.

                    *Paraphasing.


                    Sean K.I.W. Steele, Onyx Path Freelancer
                    Working on:Night Horrors: Enemy Action
                    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

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                    • #11
                      What about the theory that the Arcadia of the True Fae is merely a shadow of the true Supernal Arcadia?


                      My name is Colleen. My favorite song is "Wildwood Flower." My ambition is to write the complete history of the White Wolf/Onyx Path universe.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JulianMoon View Post
                        What about the theory that the Arcadia of the True Fae is merely a shadow of the true Supernal Arcadia?
                        There is no meaningful distinction between Faerie and a particularly auspicious gambling den in that regard.

                        Arcadia is collectively the Timeyest and Fateyest portions of the Supernal World that mages experience, and Faerie is a particularly Timey and Fatey chunk of Phenomenal reality. Whether the relation of those levels of Arcana concentration is one of dilution or distillation is academic, because neither place experiences time in the same fashion as the material world and both places are sufficiently hostile to non-naturalized humanlike entities that figuring out if one pre-dates the other is the stuff of an entire chronicle at best.


                        Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                        Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                        • #13
                          In my chronicle, those mages who are aware of the Faerie Arcadia tend to subscribe to this theory, but it may or may not be true. Neither mages nor changelings know for sure.


                          My name is Colleen. My favorite song is "Wildwood Flower." My ambition is to write the complete history of the White Wolf/Onyx Path universe.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JulianMoon View Post
                            In my chronicle, those mages who are aware of the Faerie Arcadia tend to subscribe to this theory, but it may or may not be true. Neither mages nor changelings know for sure.
                            Do What Thou Wilt at your table is the whole of the rule there.

                            Some of us have different concerns.

                            Anyways, even if for some reason cArcadia is a shadow of mArcadia, that still distinctly makes it two places, not one, and realistically cArcadia just doesn't operate like mArcadia beyond the basics. There's a nuance to the details that keep them separate.


                            Sean K.I.W. Steele, Onyx Path Freelancer
                            Working on:Night Horrors: Enemy Action
                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

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                            • #15
                              The only way to solve the question of the Arcadias is, of course, for them to fight. Two Arcadia enter, one Arcadia leave.


                              Freelancer Gaea Games • Available for work!
                              City of the Dead: My survival horror roleplaying game emphasizing Communities and rebuilding during the apocalypse.
                              My Patreon: Still getting started, come check us out and voice your input!

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