Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Question regarding to Swords of Dawn...

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Question regarding to Swords of Dawn...

    I was reading "Sword of Dawn" and there's a little passage on there called the "Fairer Sex" which explains that female characters in fairy tales tend to fall into three categories being the "Maiden, Mother, Crone" which however there's this troubling line:

    Female changelings in the modern world tend to fall into these categories whether they are aware of it or not.
    Question is, is it possible for female changelings to not fall into any of the "Maiden, Mother, Crone" categories at all despite that little passage from "Swords of Dawn" says?

  • #2
    Well it says 'tend', not that they absolutely have to/do. Just that it is likely. Not supporting the terminology/phrasing, just how it is presented.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
      Well it says 'tend', not that they absolutely have to/do. Just that it is likely. Not supporting the terminology/phrasing, just how it is presented.
      Is there a way for them to avoid it? Of course when it says "whether they are aware of it or not" assumes that all female changelings tend to belong in those categories if they're aware of it or not.

      Since I was also about to say that the whole "Three Faces of Hecate" has patriarchal narratives corresponding with the "Three Faces of Adam" since while Men are judged by their class, Women are judged by their stages of life which reflects back that women were property and men were the only real active citizen which Circle of the Crone has this same problem as well.
      Last edited by Veindark; 12-02-2016, 05:28 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Changelings, of all people, should actually have an easier time spotting the patriarchal narratives and saying "Screw that". They're deeply familiar with the narratives of classic fairy tales, and have the tools to weave their own tales should they want it.

        Those who fall into a given narrative without being aware of it are probably not exploiting their fae nature enough. Those who are aware of the narrative, but ride along with it anyway are probably actively engaging in it to build a story to defend themselves from the Gentry and their Hunstmen. Like a "princess" demanding that any 'hero' who wants her hand (ie. take her back to Faerie) must defeat her 'knights' or the big nasty 'dragon'.


        MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

        Comment


        • #5
          First off, rather like anything else found a supplement, you are under no obligation to use it, as countless arguments about Becoming Nightmare have proven.

          Second, Changelings in general find themselves put into narrative roles and groupings, but the key to dealing with that is by and large the same principle they used to escape their Durance-internalize and act upon the principle of "Fuck That Shit" until it's actualized.

          Consider it more of a warning-the Wyrd will place you if you don't.


          Sean K.I.W. Steele, Onyx Path Freelancer
          Working on:Night Horrors: Enemy Action
          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
            Changelings, of all people, should actually have an easier time spotting the patriarchal narratives and saying "Screw that". They're deeply familiar with the narratives of classic fairy tales, and have the tools to weave their own tales should they want it.

            Those who fall into a given narrative without being aware of it are probably not exploiting their fae nature enough. Those who are aware of the narrative, but ride along with it anyway are probably actively engaging in it to build a story to defend themselves from the Gentry and their Hunstmen. Like a "princess" demanding that any 'hero' who wants her hand (ie. take her back to Faerie) must defeat her 'knights' or the big nasty 'dragon'.
            Then again, I wonder if there's a option to refuse to ride with the narriative or being "immune" to talecrafting? Since there has to be other ways defend yourself against the Gentry and Huntsmen without Talecrafting.

            Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
            First off, rather like anything else found a supplement, you are under no obligation to use it, as countless arguments about Becoming Nightmare have proven.

            Second, Changelings in general find themselves put into narrative roles and groupings, but the key to dealing with that is by and large the same principle they used to escape their Durance-internalize and act upon the principle of "Fuck That Shit" until it's actualized.

            Consider it more of a warning-the Wyrd will place you if you don't.
            While I know I'm no obligation to use it but then you say Changelings find themselves into narrative roles and groupings kinda contradicted what you said there.

            You also said something about the Wyrd, what do you mean by that?

            Well lastly if not least, I think there must be a way to run Changeling without using Talecrafting (although it may exist in the background as lore though) and other alternative ways to do deal with the Gentry and Huntsmen without falling into problematic patriarchal narratives.

            Well especially those playing female characters who don't want to be either in the "Maiden, Mother, Crone, Madonna/Whore" categories or fulfilling problematic roles like being a damsel in distress and such.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm trying to think of my own ways of dealing with the issue in my chronicle, and I might even go so far as to have gender be an issue the Gentry usually have trouble understanding. The roles might persist in the Gentry mindset, and leave room for exploiting blind spots, like when the "helpless" damsel rescues herself and slays the dragon.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Veindark View Post

                While I know I'm no obligation to use it but then you say Changelings find themselves into narrative roles and groupings kinda contradicted what you said there.

                You also said something about the Wyrd, what do you mean by that?

                Well lastly if not least, I think there must be a way to run Changeling without using Talecrafting (although it may exist in the background as lore though) and other alternative ways to do deal with the Gentry and Huntsmen without falling into problematic patriarchal narratives.

                Well especially those playing female characters who don't want to be either in the "Maiden, Mother, Crone, Madonna/Whore" categories or fulfilling problematic roles like being a damsel in distress and such.
                1) Gradiations of usage. The first important thing is you don't need to use it. The second important thing is why it was put in there in the first place-it expanded on a fundamental problem with the Wyrd, being that the Wyrd tends to connect people to archetypes and narrative roles, which is an important setup inrelation to the Lost's core defining moment(er, barring the Unseemly)

                2) The Wyrd is fundamentally a connective force-more accurately, it's a force of metaphor and simile, but whatever. Point is that creatures under the influence of the Wyrd find themselves caught in a tug-of-war over their identity, because the Wyrd is always trying to connect them to an archetype, a trope, a common narrative arc. A changeling is, at all times, at the risk of being caught returning to the subjugation of fae powers-it's not enough to escape what the Keeper says they are, the Wyrd will perpetually tries to tell them what to be, and it does it by trying to align pieces into place. Clarity is important in this way because it's the changeling's way of maintaining awareness over the laws and influences the Wyrd is using and trying to use on them. Even when it's not the result of Talespinning, the Wyrd is always doing soft curveballs along those lines. At the worst, the Wyrd will often enforce memes in ways that aren't objectionable, ones that pit your characters desires for self-definition versus the comfort of friends and family.

                3) Holding off on the debates about the Maiden, Mother, and Crone, you're right, you don't have to. There's a wide of variety of narratives to be subtly enforced upon changelings to changeling, not all of them softly toxic masculine or patriarchal. Buuuuuuttt....

                4) Putting aside the Madonna/Whore thing (which isn't debatable), one of the ways Changeling is empowering is that it invites players to directly confront the more toxic narratives in our lives head-on. It can be bluntly powerful, where in the icons of diminished womanhood is held as a blunt and direct means of holding down characters only to be over come. It can be subtle and nuanced, like the afore mentioned problem of true self-definition versus the comfort of belonging. But a big part of the deal is that Changeling is about challenging the narratives that define our lives, in rejecting even the most beneficient of forms as just that-a form rather than a person. It's something to play around with and against, and to think long and hard about, one of those points that transcends gameplay into art.


                Sean K.I.W. Steele, Onyx Path Freelancer
                Working on:Night Horrors: Enemy Action
                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

                Comment


                • #9
                  As a minor example, Paris has a strong case of gender roles (and beyond that, just stereotyping, even archetyping) presented as "for the good of society", with even clear and demonstrable benefits for allowance, yet while Paris keeps up a decent defense at all times, it's written with the idea that revolution is inevitable, that this enforced iconography of citizens must be destroyed. Paris as a setting would be weaker if we didn't have that as a present conflict.
                  Last edited by ArcaneArts; 12-03-2016, 12:45 AM.


                  Sean K.I.W. Steele, Onyx Path Freelancer
                  Working on:Night Horrors: Enemy Action
                  The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well, I was kinda implying Taleweaving, but that's probably not necessarily the only way to work around fate. Like, you know, how even mundane women can throw off the social pressures of the patriarchy and its passive-condescending attitudes. Furiosa from Mad Max come to mind, being someone who rose pretty high in an oppressive and patriarchal post-apocalyptic society. She even started as a slave to boot, so there's overcoming Class in addition to Sex.

                    The edge that changelings have over normal people is that they have a Clear view on just what sort of Wyrd narrative is being forced onto them in their lives, allowing them to be more prepared than a normal human trying to fight his destiny.


                    MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                      1) Gradiations of usage. The first important thing is you don't need to use it. The second important thing is why it was put in there in the first place-it expanded on a fundamental problem with the Wyrd, being that the Wyrd tends to connect people to archetypes and narrative roles, which is an important setup inrelation to the Lost's core defining moment(er, barring the Unseemly)

                      2) The Wyrd is fundamentally a connective force-more accurately, it's a force of metaphor and simile, but whatever. Point is that creatures under the influence of the Wyrd find themselves caught in a tug-of-war over their identity, because the Wyrd is always trying to connect them to an archetype, a trope, a common narrative arc. A changeling is, at all times, at the risk of being caught returning to the subjugation of fae powers-it's not enough to escape what the Keeper says they are, the Wyrd will perpetually tries to tell them what to be, and it does it by trying to align pieces into place. Clarity is important in this way because it's the changeling's way of maintaining awareness over the laws and influences the Wyrd is using and trying to use on them. Even when it's not the result of Talespinning, the Wyrd is always doing soft curveballs along those lines. At the worst, the Wyrd will often enforce memes in ways that aren't objectionable, ones that pit your characters desires for self-definition versus the comfort of friends and family.

                      3) Holding off on the debates about the Maiden, Mother, and Crone, you're right, you don't have to. There's a wide of variety of narratives to be subtly enforced upon changelings to changeling, not all of them softly toxic masculine or patriarchal. Buuuuuuttt....

                      4) Putting aside the Madonna/Whore thing (which isn't debatable), one of the ways Changeling is empowering is that it invites players to directly confront the more toxic narratives in our lives head-on. It can be bluntly powerful, where in the icons of diminished womanhood is held as a blunt and direct means of holding down characters only to be over come. It can be subtle and nuanced, like the afore mentioned problem of true self-definition versus the comfort of belonging. But a big part of the deal is that Changeling is about challenging the narratives that define our lives, in rejecting even the most beneficient of forms as just that-a form rather than a person. It's something to play around with and against, and to think long and hard about, one of those points that transcends gameplay into art.
                      Well then again though, I guess this implies you may need to stay at Wyrd 1 to prevent having archetypes and narrative roles defining your life? Or is there a other way?

                      Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                      As a minor example, Paris has a strong case of gender roles (and beyond that, just stereotyping, even archetyping) presented as "for the good of society", with even clear and demonstrable benefits for allowance, yet while Paris keeps up a decent defense at all times, it's written with the idea that revolution is inevitable, that this enforced iconography of citizens must be destroyed. Paris as a setting would be weaker if we didn't have that as a present conflict.
                      I guess a Female Changeling needs to avoid Paris like Modern Day Sharia Law states like Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc then? Or is is possible for female Changelings in Paris to reject such gender roles?
                      Last edited by Veindark; 12-03-2016, 12:48 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Veindark View Post
                        I was reading "Sword of Dawn" and there's a little passage on there called the "Fairer Sex" which explains that female characters in fairy tales tend to fall into three categories being the "Maiden, Mother, Crone" which however there's this troubling line:



                        Question is, is it possible for female changelings to not fall into any of the "Maiden, Mother, Crone" categories at all despite that little passage from "Swords of Dawn" says?
                        Don't forget Subversion of type is a thing in a story. The maiden can still be a bad-ass Red Sonia type because she won't go for any man who can't defeat her in single combat.

                        Mother includes Mother Bear archetype as well, and just means you are protective of the members of your motley.

                        Basically just because these 3 broad archetypal roles exist doesn't mean the maiden has to be a helpless victim or a mother has to be a healer, or the crone a satanic mother in law. These roles are readily available for you to play with and mess with.

                        The key elements to play with are these
                        Maiden doesn't go with just anyone they have to accomplish some act to prove their worth to her.
                        Mother protects and nurtures others.
                        Crone advises, and uses her mind over her body.

                        There is a lot of room in these roles to create interesting story and characters. Don't underestimate the power of the archetype.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by HaplessWithDice View Post

                          Don't forget Subversion of type is a thing in a story. The maiden can still be a bad-ass Red Sonia type because she won't go for any man who can't defeat her in single combat.

                          Mother includes Mother Bear archetype as well, and just means you are protective of the members of your motley.

                          Basically just because these 3 broad archetypal roles exist doesn't mean the maiden has to be a helpless victim or a mother has to be a healer, or the crone a satanic mother in law. These roles are readily available for you to play with and mess with.

                          The key elements to play with are these
                          Maiden doesn't go with just anyone they have to accomplish some act to prove their worth to her.
                          Mother protects and nurtures others.
                          Crone advises, and uses her mind over her body.

                          There is a lot of room in these roles to create interesting story and characters. Don't underestimate the power of the archetype.
                          Thing is, I'm not asking for subversion but rather complete rejection/abolition that any woman can exist outside or doesn't fit any of those those archetypes

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Veindark View Post

                            Thing is, I'm not asking for subversion but rather complete rejection/abolition that any woman can exist outside or doesn't fit any of those those archetypes
                            The problem is with how broad those strokes are. Your asking can you play a character who...
                            Doesn't think of herself and take measures to protect herself.
                            or
                            One who doesn't think of others and try to protect those she cares about
                            or
                            One who doesn't think

                            The moment you take measures to protect yourself or act in your self interest you become the Maiden. Because those are the actions of the maiden.
                            The moment you do anything to protect a member of your Motley you are acting as a mother.
                            The moment you go to college and earn a degree, solve a puzzle on your own, or allocate more to mental skills than physical than social skills you become the Crone.

                            These are Nukes not hand grenades we are lobbing here, these go beyond broad strokes. Looking at media I struggle to find a character who doesn't fall into these Archetypes.
                            Red Sonia as I said is a Maiden without needing a Subversion of Archetype.
                            Zeva Davide of NCIS is a Mother without needing a Subversion or deconstruction. Her actions to protect the members of her team even at the cost of her own self prove that.
                            Temperance Brennan of Bones is a Crone because she uses her mind and education more than anything else she is an extreme example of this archetype even.

                            Also eveyone alive is a collection of Archetypes so just because they have the Mother Archetype doesn't mean they can't also have the warrior, the crone, and the maiden. No one is just one thing. We all play many roles.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by HaplessWithDice View Post
                              The problem is with how broad those strokes are. Your asking can you play a character who...
                              Doesn't think of herself and take measures to protect herself.
                              or
                              One who doesn't think of others and try to protect those she cares about
                              or
                              One who doesn't think
                              This is not what I'm asking for though but what I'm asking for is more dynamic or rather alternatives to the complete rejection of maiden, mother, crone archetypes due to their patriarchal roots.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X