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  • #16
    Originally posted by Veindark View Post

    This is not what I'm asking for though but what I'm asking for is more dynamic or rather alternatives to the complete rejection of maiden, mother, crone archetypes due to their patriarchal roots.
    That's what I'm trying to say. If you character does all three of the things above they have Completely rejected Maiden, Mother and Crone Archetypes.
    Of course to avoid the Maiden who have to avoid doing anything in your self interest.
    To avoid the mother you cannot act to help others
    And you have to be vapid and shallow to avoid the Crone.

    So if you play an air headed, adrenaline junky, who doesn't help the other PC's yes you will have avoided all 3.
    Last edited by HaplessWithDice; 12-03-2016, 02:37 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by HaplessWithDice View Post
      That's what I'm trying to say. If you character does all three of the things above they have Completely rejected Maiden, Mother and Crone Archetypes.
      Another thing what about women taking the role of Hunter/Lord/Prophet? Or rather a complete rejection of those since they're also patriarchal narratives as well.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Veindark View Post

        Another thing what about women taking the role of Hunter/Lord/Prophet? Or rather a complete rejection of those since they're also patriarchal narratives as well.
        Hunter - Who are they hunting for? If it's to feed/Protect their friends then that is a combination of Hunter & Mother. To Feed Themselves Hunter-Maiden. To find Knowledge Hunter -Crone
        Lord - Why are they leading? Because Lord plays well with all three as well. A Lord who rules so they have protection of self is a Lord - Maiden. A lord who rules to protect those under their rule is a Lord - Mother. A lord who rules to spread their Wisdom is a Lord - Crone.
        Prophet - Why do they share their inspiration. To ganer safety and security for themselves Prophet - Maiden, To Inspire and Help others Prophet - Mother, Because knowledge demands to be shared, Prophet - Crone.
        Last edited by HaplessWithDice; 12-03-2016, 02:45 PM. Reason: Spelling Errors.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Veindark View Post

          Well then again though, I guess this implies you may need to stay at Wyrd 1 to prevent having archetypes and narrative roles defining your life? Or is there a other way?



          I guess a Female Changeling needs to avoid Paris like Modern Day Sharia Law states like Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc then? Or is is possible for female Changelings in Paris to reject such gender roles?
          1) Nope. One does not fight the Wyrd by staying low Wyrd. The Wyrd will do what it will. Humans can fall under it's influence, but Wyrd 10 changelings can be free of it. You fight the Wyrd's influence by being your own person. It is, after all, a passive force, an arrayer of circumstances that will string you along if you live your life passively. If you maintain determination for yourself, even at Wyrd 10 you are your own person.

          Clarity helps.

          2a) You do realize feminism is also for guys benefits and that it can be shit for men to be put under toxic and/or restricting forms too, right?

          2b) Again, a large part of that depends on how much you decide to go into it. While the problems of the Roles and the Courts attitudes are unavoidable, the gender role* thing is implied but not enforced. I want some people to go and explore and fight the gender issues baked into the freehold, but you could play an entire game in there and never even touch it. Flexibility is a thing.

          2c) Putting aside some other commentary, one of the big points to Paris is throwing off roles, rejecting the system that casts you in them. Sooner or later, the Rosiere is going to fall. So, yes, if you play to the full depth, you can also reject the gender roles. That would be the point.


          Sean K.I.W. Steele, Onyx Path Freelancer
          Working on:Night Horrors: Enemy Action
          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
            1) Nope. One does not fight the Wyrd by staying low Wyrd. The Wyrd will do what it will. Humans can fall under it's influence, but Wyrd 10 changelings can be free of it. You fight the Wyrd's influence by being your own person. It is, after all, a passive force, an arrayer of circumstances that will string you along if you live your life passively. If you maintain determination for yourself, even at Wyrd 10 you are your own person.
            However if we took "Becoming Nightmares" as fact, then there's also the prospect or very likely risk of Wyrd 10 Changelings becoming True Fae which also means (if I'm assuming correctly) eroding your own person and becoming the very abuser (as True Fae are written since empathetic ones don't exist apparently) that you fought against which is the legitimate reason why to keep yourself at a very low Wyrd.

            Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
            2a) You do realize feminism is also for guys benefits and that it can be shit for men to be put under toxic and/or restricting forms too, right?.
            What do you mean by that?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Veindark View Post

              However if we took "Becoming Nightmares" as fact, then there's also the prospect or very likely risk of Wyrd 10 Changelings becoming True Fae which also means (if I'm assuming correctly) eroding your own person and becoming the very abuser (as True Fae are written since empathetic ones don't exist apparently) that you fought against which is the legitimate reason why to keep yourself at a very low Wyrd.



              What do you mean by that?
              1) Wyrd 10 in Becoming Nightmare is just a hammer pulled back-you'd still have to pull the trigger, and that's always more than people think of that section.

              This conception that the only way to live in Changeling is low powered and in fear is bullshit and not in the spirit of the game.

              2) I both meant what I said and was checking to see if you understood that principle.

              It's not just women who suffer from toxic masculinity.


              Sean K.I.W. Steele, Onyx Path Freelancer
              Working on:Night Horrors: Enemy Action
              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Veindark View Post

                Another thing what about women taking the role of Hunter/Lord/Prophet? Or rather a complete rejection of those since they're also patriarchal narratives as well.
                By the way what do you mean by that Patriachal Narratives?
                The hunter is one who seeks a specific quarry wether that is Knowelge, food ie meat, a criminal. They seek something specific, and use their skills to obtain it.
                The Lord is who who leads others. Leadership is a quality that men or women can have, a CEO isn't always male, and Queen Elizabeth is clearly a Lord.
                The Prophet is one who is inspired and has a message to share. This narriative doesn't hinge on being male, it hinges on having a message or inspiration to share with everyone.

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                • #23
                  Example of men suffering under toxic masculinity: I've come across way too many men who treat me as inferior because I'm male and not constantly out for sex. That whole thing about all men being pigs: It seems to originate from these people because I've never seen it come from a feminist in real life.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by BronzeDog View Post
                    Example of men suffering under toxic masculinity: I've come across way too many men who treat me as inferior because I'm male and not constantly out for sex. That whole thing about all men being pigs: It seems to originate from these people because I've never seen it come from a feminist in real life.
                    Ohh here is another good one.
                    Men need to be Stoic so that their family can rely on them, and lean upon their strength and use it for their own, and it is their duty to provide this strength any man who doesn't is useless. The man must be the rock upon which everyone else can build themselves.

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                    • #25
                      So three things come to mind after reading this discussion.

                      1. Simplest solution by far....ignore the narrative roles. Changeling is a big, big, big game with lots of concepts and ideas. Talecrafting and the more general discussion of Fate in Dancers in the Dusk weren't even a part of the intended lineup. They were an extra pack of options and concepts allowed for by the popularity of the original gameline. They can be as much or as little a part of your game as you desire. And seeing as you have concerns about the connotations of the ideas presented, it might be best not to muck with them. Either avoiding fate and talecrafting altogether, or ignoring the tri-fold goddess bit of talecrafting.

                      2. Wyrd as villain: Opposite solution, play up how awful the narrative aspects are. The Wyrd is inhuman. It loves patterns, and it doesn't care how those patterns affect the people it attaches them to. So make the patterns as insulting and as stifling as possible. Make the primary goal an escape from these awful roles foisted upon the characters by this otherwordly force. Like a less immediately lethal version of Final Destination, the conflict is about avoiding getting dragged into the path fate wants you to take and running from its efforts to put recalcitrant pawns back on the "correct narrative".

                      3. Hard option. Figure out what aspects of the Maiden/Mother/Crone trope you dislike, and shunt off those aspects. "Liberate" the trope from the patriarchy and take charge of the concept yourself. Change it into something recognizable enough to excite the folklorists among the players and characters, but unique enough to satisfy your own misgivings. Turn it into something you can enjoy. Make it your own.

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