Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

[2E] Why not multiple Courts Systems in one Freehold?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • [2E] Why not multiple Courts Systems in one Freehold?

    A question that is bothering me from the times of reading first Courts previews from 2E and did not got answer on this. Discussion sprung from talk about possible New York City Freehold system. And now to the main topic...

    Till this day, all time I only saw about 2E Changeling ‘this place Courts system is this and only this’. Even ArcaneArts Paris is written from perspective that there are no Seasonal Courts left in there, from what I read on forum, only Roses Courts are in city. Which is shame, as for me, it ALWAYS should be like old and new Freehols are ‘fighting’ for members in their Courts – just older Courts are most of the time loosing, slowly, but surely degrading over years, probably to non-existence after few centuries. And that Seasonal Courts should be, at least in history, of most places in the West, as most popular Court System from antiquity ( Ancient Rome, to be precise ).

    Like I plan make Lublin, Poland city’s setting to encompasses both Seasonal and Day and Night Courts, even if low on numbers, because it’s on the borderland between West and East Europe. It is logical on this territory that multiple Bulwark Stories by held, so I think more than one Courts system are in order. I'm not saying every setting should have multiple system right now - but nice would be marking that most cities in West head Seasonal Courts at one time, or Direction Courts on East. And in bigger ones, previous Courts are surviving, on the outskirts of Lost society, but still there. It add continuity to particular Freehold - and let you insert one or two totally different NPCs, hailing from now losing older Courts of region.


    Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
    My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
    MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events

  • #2
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    Till this day, all time I only saw about 2E Changeling ‘this place Courts system is this and only this’.
    Yes. That's how a Freehold works.

    You're conflating freeholds with their cities and base Court structures when even prior to the edition switch there were cities with multiple freeholds and Toronto has demonstrably adapted from one system to another in a manner that's left a remnant faction.

    A freehold is a territory identified with a loosely unified group of changelings with disparate approaches to warding off fae incursion. If you have meaningful conflict over narrative alignment that isn't just Court politics then you have separate freeholds engaged in a geopolitical dispute, not a separate Court system in the same freehold.


    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

    Comment


    • #3
      A freehold only have a given Court structure by definition. Multiple Court arrangements in the same area would in fact be multiple freeholds.


      Just call me Lex.

      Female pronouns for me, please.

      Comment


      • #4
        As mentioned at length in New York, Paris always had two freeholds-The Rosiere and The Sleeping Lions. I was just busy writing one over the other as a fan, and literally only had space for one when it became official content.

        In order to get a multiple-freehold thing into a book in one go, it has to have three things:

        A) Sizeable changeling population.
        B) Reasonable cause for division of rituals.
        C) Small number of Courts on both sides.

        Paris, at minimum between the two freeholds, has nine courts, realistically ten. You try and write them all up in 5000 words.

        As also mentioned over in the other thread, 1E mentioned multiple freeholds as of Lords of Summer, possibly Winter Masques. 1E hadn't covered it because it was less concerned with providing settings to play in. 2E hasn't done it yet because space. It's in the plans.


        Sean K.I.W. Steele, Freelance Writer
        Work Blog Coming Soon
        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
          As mentioned at length in New York, Paris always had two freeholds-The Rosiere and The Sleeping Lions. I was just busy writing one over the other as a fan, and literally only had space for one when it became official content.

          In order to get a multiple-freehold thing into a book in one go, it has to have three things:

          A) Sizeable changeling population.
          B) Reasonable cause for division of rituals.
          C) Small number of Courts on both sides.

          Paris, at minimum between the two freeholds, has nine courts, realistically ten. You try and write them all up in 5000 words.

          As also mentioned over in the other thread, 1E mentioned multiple freeholds as of Lords of Summer, possibly Winter Masques. 1E hadn't covered it because it was less concerned with providing settings to play in. 2E hasn't done it yet because space. It's in the plans.
          Is there any chance of us seeing the other Parisian freehold later on? Asking for a friend.


          Just call me Lex.

          Female pronouns for me, please.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by atamajakki View Post

            Is there any chance of us seeing the other Parisian freehold later on? Asking for a friend.
            One way or another, you guys will see the Sleeping Lions Freehold. Right now, the biggest question is "Will I be able to slip it into a book, or will it have to be a blog post?" I wouldn't put it in The Hedge, but there's some other things we might put it in, especially if we ever get to do a book of freeholds, which I am fairly sure we will do and I will geek right the hell out over.

            But yeah, Jabir al-Abbas will not see his dream be silenced, no fear.


            Sean K.I.W. Steele, Freelance Writer
            Work Blog Coming Soon
            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm going here for historicity thing. When we have one 'Freehold area' going from Court System A to Court System B, you cannot assume that every changeling in city will switch Courts between counterparts of A in B in only one night. There will be some time ( weeks, months, maybe even years ) between System B will diminish System A completely - and even there I would not be sure if all magic of Courtiers from System A just simply stops to work after fall of System A Bulwark. Will Spring Monarch lose all his Spring Contracts if Seasonal Courts Bulwark fall? Would even typical Courtier lose his Seasons Contracts? I don't think so, but I'm not sure here.

              Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
              In order to get a multiple-freehold thing into a book in one go, it has to have three things:

              A) Sizeable changeling population.
              B) Reasonable cause for division of rituals.
              C) Small number of Courts on both sides.
              So you cannot have multiple Courts Systems without Bulwark for each one of them? Can at least Courts Systems be in one geographical locations? Like in the same neighborhood you have both Courtiers of Seasons and Day/Night, both sustaining their own Bulwark?

              And if you can have multiple Courts Systems in same locations - each Bulwark is protecting each Systems Courtiers only, yes? So if we have Seasonal and Day/Night Courts, Seasonal Bulwark protects Seasonal Courtiers and Day/Night Bulwark is protecting Day/Night Courtiers?


              Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
              My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
              MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events

              Comment


              • #8
                Wyrd, what you are calling a "Court System" is what a Freehold is.


                Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

                Comment


                • #9
                  In my home games, many australian freeholds actually have some tension come from the fact that a large number of indigenous court systems were removed and replaced because of so much aboriginal culture being decimated leading to rituals and mythology behind many courts being forgotten. This leads to many regions having 95% of it's changelings in the major freehold, and then 5% in a broken freehold which might not have enough numbers to have people in each required court without requiring members to be placed into courts that they don't really match for the sake of "If x court doesn't have enough members to remain acknowledged by the wyrd, then we can't maintain the Bulwark".

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                    Im going here for historicity thing. When we have one 'Freehold area' going from Court System A to Court System B, you cannot assume that every changeling in city will switch Courts between counterparts of A in B in only one night. There will be some time ( weeks, months, maybe even years ) between System B will diminish System A completly - and even there I would not be sure if all magic of Courtiers from System A just simply stops to work after fall of Bulwark. Will Spring Monarch lose all his Spring Contracts if Seasonal Courts Bulwark fall? Would even typical Courtier lose his Seasons Contracts? I don't think so.



                    So you cannot have mutliple Courts Systems without Bulwark for each one of them? Can at least Courts Systems be in one geographical locations? Like in the same neighborhood you have both Courtiers of Seasons and Day/Night, both sustaingin Bulwark?

                    And if you can have multiple Courts Systems in same locations - each Bulwark is protecting each Systems Courtiers only, yes? So if we have Seasonal and Day/Night Courts, Seasonal Bulwark protects Seasonal Courtiers and Day/Night Bulwark is protecting Day/Night Courtiers?
                    This is a big part of the reason why for the past two days I've been thinking the hell out of freehold theory*, because I've been trying to figure out what happens with shit like that. We have the groundwork for answers between Grimm Dark Era, Lily, Sabre, and Thorn, and a lot of things I implied in Paris that I've been realizing over the year that may or may not either set precedent or require revision.

                    For now, the answers I do have, as mostly apply to the second half.

                    Multiple Freeholds in a city means multiple Bulwarks. A Freehold is first defined by it's Bulwark. If two freeholds or more shared a bulwark, one has to ask why they don't just re-codify themselves into Courts and be done with it. The answer is-they just would.

                    They can be in the same city-at least, in a broad geographic sense. For example, Rosiere and Sleeping Lions both cover the Paris Metropolitan Area, albeit Sleeping Lions is smaller. But what even the hell does that mean? Do freeholds even cover geographic area, or does it have to do with the spread of acceptance of the variation on the Bulwark story? How much variation is needed for an effect-is a Seasonal courtier dependent on his own city's performance of the Bulwark, or is he covered in another city that has the Seasonal Courts, minor differences be damned? If he is dependent on his own, does it apply if he's not there for it to be re-established, or is he safe in the world so long as they keep it up? What happens when the territories of freeholds aren't clearly defined, and you get places that overlap? These and a whole ton more is what I'm wrangling with.

                    But in the simplest terms, Paris and Los Angeles(1E) both prove you can have them in one geographic location-hell, this is the precedent for this entire conversation.

                    Ostensibly, Freehold Bulwarks protect those who swear into the Freehold-there are still courtless in all these Freeholds, after all, but so long as they swear them to the Freehold, they're golden. People not sworn in aren't covered at all, and there should theoretically be no interference between Bulwarks whatsoever.

                    Theoretically. Except that by implication of Paris, that's a lot more debatable than it should be.

                    We didn't have the space to really cover it in the proper version, the reference to Sleeping Lions existing purely in the character of Jabir al-Abbas-but the hook with Sleeping Lions has always been that the Rosiere does not exhibit a lot of the same cultural problems and prejudices of human Parisians EXCEPT where the Bulwark was concerned, but that Jabir's entire motive revolves around people wanting another Bulwark that makes them feel safer-which some people might call namby pamby until you remember that Duels should not make the mortal world like a dreamscape, and that the Maison Du Regret is so damn hostile towards the fae. It's a problem for the Sovereigns because, supposedly, the Sleeping Lion's Bulwark going on at the same time as the Rosiere's is Messing Things UpTM, and might cause anything from shenanigans to the eventual collapse of one or both Bulwarks. My problem right now is that I don't know if the Sovereigns are right, or if they're just being the Sovereigns.

                    As a second corollary, though this doesn't exist in any material put down yet and therefore should be considered highly suspicious, is a problem that the Forest of Teeth during the French Occupation might have had.

                    The Forest of Teeth Resistance was the major structure for changelings at that time, and if I get to write it the way I envision it, it's got a lot of special things going on-but let's keep it on point. By and large, the Forest of Teeth was tied strongly to the French Resistance-they were known of to the Resistance, and some of the prominent members of the Forest of Teeth would actually go in ChroD history books, or appear in "Top Spies of the French Resistence" lists on the net. ANYWAYS, this created a problem for folks who just wanted to keep their heads down, because being in the Forest of Teeth meant you were probably doing something to sabotage the Vichy and the Germans, which is not conducive to avoiding problems. The two Houses of the Resistance didn't dub these people Houseless, though-they named them the House of Victims(Maybe). THeoretically, their Bulwark did work on the Victims despite them not swearing on anything.

                    soooooo....maybe it works on people not sworn in on shit? if this very recent idea I've had regarding the Forest of Teeth as an actual setting rather than a bit of information in the backstory of the Rosiere ends up having any weight?

                    And everything else really is figuring out just what the farking hell is going on with Freeholds and Bulwarks. It's a thing.

                    *Freehold Theory consists of two parts that are somewhat tied together-the historical and sociological forces that shape freeholds as it relates to those things affecting the metaphysics(the trends of the ebb and flow of freeholds through history), and the metaphysical specifics.


                    Sean K.I.W. Steele, Freelance Writer
                    Work Blog Coming Soon
                    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
                      In my home games, many australian freeholds actually have some tension come from the fact that a large number of indigenous court systems were removed and replaced because of so much aboriginal culture being decimated leading to rituals and mythology behind many courts being forgotten. This leads to many regions having 95% of it's changelings in the major freehold, and then 5% in a broken freehold which might not have enough numbers to have people in each required court without requiring members to be placed into courts that they don't really match for the sake of "If x court doesn't have enough members to remain acknowledged by the wyrd, then we can't maintain the Bulwark".
                      I really like this. PM me sometime milo, we should talk


                      Aims to write stuff you like. WoD | Changing Breeds, Umbra, Book of the Wyrm, Shattered Dreams CofD | Werewolf: The Forsaken 2nd ed, Idigam Anthology, The Pack, Demon Storyteller's Guide, Hurt Locker, Dark Eras Companion, Beast Player's Guide, Deviant: The Renegades The Trinity Continuum | Æon

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        ArcaneArts, my take on your questions is simple - Bulwark protects people that pledge allegiance to Freehold. BUT Court magic works until you change Courts. This way when Bulwark is broken, all Courtiers are in much more danger - but they Contracts and Approaches from Court make possible to still fight True Fae and Huntsman. Then you have two solutions:
                        1. Rebuild old Bulwark from your Court System. If you are Seasonal Courtier, this would mean choosing proper Season Monarch of now season and Courtiers pledging allegiance to him - that can be difficult suddenly, with some Courtiers dead from previous Bulwark broken, some don't wanting to upholding 'old laws', etc.
                        2. Build new Court System, with new Bulwark. Probably it can be much simpler as new Systems, generally, are more 'cultural hip' to changelings living now in Freehold and easier to gather once broken Courtiers of previous System.

                        This way 'old guard' can still be of their original Courts, they just have much more difficult time until they rebuild their own Bulwark. If they will not get enough recruits than new Courts System, old System just died out, naturally. it's more preferred for them if they join new Court System because of safety working Bulwark gives - but it would mean degradation. Imagine Spring King that need to crawl to Rose Courts to become low Courtier.

                        Then, if Bulwark protects those that pledge allegiance - it solves two working Courts Systems. Each changeling chose Bulwark they follow, and Court connected to it. If his Bulwark is broken, he is left only on help of his Court. And second Court System has this tasty working Bulwark waiting for him...


                        Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
                        My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
                        MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think the big question is what effect does having multiple Freeholds in the same geographic area have on the local hedge, given that local freeholds have a major impact upon the local hedge.

                          I mean bulwark wise, I'm under the assumption that as long as your home freehold bulwark is up, your golden protection wise, so yeah the local hedge is the big question for me.

                          Toronto it appears has no less then 3 Freeholds within it, The Sultina's (whose courts appear big enough to have unofficial courts of their own), Seelie, and Seasonal. What effect does that have on the local hedge, especially when that means at least 3 Freehold Monarchs?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
                            Toronto it appears has no less then 3 Freeholds within it, The Sultina's (whose courts appear big enough to have unofficial courts of their own), Seelie, and Seasonal.
                            The remnants of Toronto's Seelie and Seasonal Courts that didn't jump ship to one of the other departments specifically condensed themselves into the Silver Court.


                            Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                            Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                              The remnants of Toronto's Seelie and Seasonal Courts that didn't jump ship to one of the other departments specifically condensed themselves into the Silver Court.
                              "Many courtiers defected to Scheherazade's Freehold and the Silver Court but some Seasonals and Seelie still live in Toronto. In the last twenty years, they've given up on their wars and allied together to strike at Scheherazade when the opportunity presents itself. They've been quiet the past few seasons, however, and whispers on the street think they're about to pull something big
                              "

                              from the playtest document, the rebuilt reminents of the Seelie and Seasonal Courts have ended their wars and allied together against the Sultina's Freehold.

                              We will have the Scheherazade's Courts and the Seasonal Courts, but I won't lie, it's disappointing we won't have the Seelie Courts as well, at least in the Core, maybe in The Hedge.

                              At least both the Seelie and Directional Courts get mentioned , if not detailed in the Corebook.
                              Last edited by Omegaphallic; 12-20-2016, 08:23 PM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X