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  • Originally posted by Insane•kismanO View Post
    holier-than-thou moralizing
    This is literally never going to be a useful thing to claim about 1e's Morality stats and the sooner you can disabuse yourself of the idea that it's worth holding onto the less trouble you're going to encounter with them.

    If you strictly adhere to the rules 7-to-2 downfall is probably a month after escaping.
    This suggests quite strongly that your definition of "strictly adhere to the rules" is out of line with the intent of the rules.

    7 is the base, what you can easily loose w/o ID and money (even fare dodging is a form of petty theft after all) and don't forget that the escaping alone is a "serious unexpected life change", seeing a mirror at the first time counts as well; after a PTSD I bet that you can easily go without human contact while try to realize WTF is happening with you, so that's a 6;
    Case in point: Every changeling already knows they are no longer human by the time of character creation. Many of them escaped to try and reunite with loved ones. Breaking points are not automatically failed upon rolling.

    3 is baffling because Dreamwalking and plundering is supposed to be the THING to the escapee from Nightmareland;
    I'm not sure how "doing the exact sort of thing the Fae do on the regular is highly damaging to a changeling's ability to remind themselves that they aren't still along for the ride with a fairytale godmonster that owns their soul" is supposed to be confusing.

    2 is another interesting one, "serial murder" is pretty straightforward but I still don't know after all these years what "Casual / callous crime" means.
    Doing crimes to people with no regard for their personhood? "People don't usually thieve and maim with inhuman indifference in most Earthly societies" is another one of those lines keeping your experience in Arcadia firmly in the realm of fuzzy memory.

    and finally the 1 one: "perversion" oh, please someone define it - one mans's perversion is the other man's mere pleasure (or in this case the "doing it with one feather is kinky / with a whole chicken is perversion" rule plays?)
    It's part of a larger sentence, dude — Heinous acts of torture, depravity, and perversion paints a much more drastic picture of the implied activities than a night at the fetish club, particularly when "perversion" as a word is not purely a sex thing; there's an angle on corruption present in the set of definitions of that word.

    Question: In a dangerous environment almost everyone should be counted as Clarity 4 at most or precise conditioning/brainwashing/training shifts the moral standing points of the BPs?
    This is generally why most changelings are not going to be too keen on staying in dangerous environments unless they're well and truly stuck in the mindset of "I'm still in Arcadia, so I might as well act like it."

    2. Durance
    1e states that "Changelings who were taken as infants or very young children, and those who were abducted more than 50 years ago, don’t have a strong enough memory of their homes to find their way through the Thorns." what is a bit shortsighted, I think. A hundred years is more plausible, probably. Since it's 2018 it means that not a single boheme from the roaring 20's, a strong-willed partisan from the WW2 not even a revolutionary student or hippie from the 60's could escape.
    It's not a matter of escape. It's a matter of still having a recognizable personal point of reference on Earth to get back to.


    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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    • Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
      Don't know about the rest, but it's NWoD tradition as I understand it to use utter perversion as a euphemism and collective shorthand for rape, pedophilia, bestiality, maybe cannibalism if its not listed somewhere else, feeding someone their own fingers one by one and even grosser stuff that I can easily imagine but would hesitate to list outside of PM. Basically, it's, it's most sex-related felonies and any non-sexual act that no one but the most jaded, twisted sicko would call evil, or at least gross and excessive.
      Thanks! It seems like a case of sentence comprehension mistake in my side.

      I've read "Heinous acts of torture, depravity or perversion."
      as "Heinous acts: torture / depravity / perversion"
      not as "Classified acts of graphic torture, absolute depravity and utterly heinous perversion"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Insane•kismanO View Post
        Hoi!

        I have three questions, more academic and less about mechanics, so both 1e/2e answers are fine
        (if they are not simple enough I happily move them to a thread)


        3. Parenting
        Someone wrote in the other thread that Rose doesn't want to exclude parenting from the 2e (please direct me to the proper thread with the whole explanation, thank you).
        In one hand it is a nice touch, on the other hand… Look, this is a horror game after all and I like to hurt my Players a bit once in a while, but I don't want to beat them to pulp.
        Pregnancy is already a heavy burden to a Mortal woman (bless them all!) but a devastating experience to a Changeling in my opinion: my body is changing; something growing inside me; my feelings, cravings and needs are not mine; constant adult fears, paranoia and overprotecting - no matters if the offspring is a Mortal or a Changeling: what does she see and experience; what does she tells to anyone; why doesn't she hold or go to a sleepover; why doesn't she checked in; why doesn't she came home in the proper time, and the list goes on.
        It's a much more heavier responsibility to bring a child to life, THIS life what is full of dangers than to a Mortal. They just suspecting that danger lurks in every shadows, but you know it exactly.

        Question: What do you think? Is it really a good idea? / How exactly will it be addressed or changed in 2e?

        Thank you and sorry for the tl;dr
        I think that making it possible for changelings to have children is a great idea. Whether individual characters think it’s a good thing doesn’t matter, at least from a game perspective. First edition pretty much said that it couldn’t happen, which eliminated a lot of potential stories. It was one of the things that we house ruled away for our games, and I’m glad to see that it isn’t returning for second edition.


        Jason Ross Inczauskis
        Freelance Writer
        Currently writing: Dark Eras 2, TC In Media Res
        Previous projects: DtD Night Horrors: Enemy Action (Alban, Beelzebub, Oxblood Mold, Whispering Oak); C20 Anthology of Dreams ("No Such Thing As Dragons")

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        • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
          This is literally never going to be a useful thing to claim about 1e's Morality stats and the sooner you can disabuse yourself of the idea that it's worth holding onto the less trouble you're going to encounter with them.

          This suggests quite strongly that your definition of "strictly adhere to the rules" is out of line with the intent of the rules.
          Thank you! I disagree with you in some points, but the different PoV gave some food to my brain to chew on

          Case in point: Every changeling already knows they are no longer human by the time of character creation. Many of them escaped to try and reunite with loved ones. Breaking points are not automatically failed upon rolling.
          Knowing something is different from "seriously shocked by something".
          In my teenage years I've had an accident and woke up in the hospital.
          I knew that something is wrong, I felt that it hurt and many things changed, but facing with it the first time and seeing my broken face, scars and bruises all together was a Breaking Point for me IRL.

          I meant that a Changeling is foredoomed to loose most of her Clarity in a relatively short period, facing with all of the changes (pun not intended) at the beginning.

          I'm not sure how "doing the exact sort of thing the Fae do on the regular is highly damaging to a changeling's ability to remind themselves that they aren't still along for the ride with a fairytale godmonster that owns their soul" is supposed to be confusing.
          I thought that "Actively harming a mortal by ravaging their dreams." is a Changeling thing, but nowadays it's more a Beast territory.

          Doing crimes to people with no regard for their personhood? "People don't usually thieve and maim with inhuman indifference in most Earthly societies" is another one of those lines keeping your experience in Arcadia firmly in the realm of fuzzy memory.
          You misunderstood me: crimes against Mortals are higher BPs and it's absolutely logical to me (while a Lost tries to balance her humanity with the miraculous side) but the "Casual/callous crime against other supernaturals (serial murder)." makes me confused. Not the serial murder part, obviously.
          Why is it more serious to raid an Egyptian tomb than a burglary / to join a Hunter group and decimate the local Kindred than manslaughter / to rob the Magi in a Ponzi-scheme than raid the local elderly home?

          It's part of a larger sentence, dude — Heinous acts of torture, depravity, and perversion paints a much more drastic picture of the implied activities than a night at the fetish club, particularly when "perversion" as a word is not purely a sex thing; there's an angle on corruption present in the set of definitions of that word.
          Yeah, my bad, got it.

          This is generally why most changelings are not going to be too keen on staying in dangerous environments unless they're well and truly stuck in the mindset of "I'm still in Arcadia, so I might as well act like it."
          So, you suggest that previously trained / conditioned criminals, members of the law enforcement and military, even member of some religious orders with strict rules should avoid their former life to hold on their Clarity because they were strong and agile enough to escape the magical nightmares but soft and fragile enough to live by the slightly different mindset they were taught to.

          It's not a matter of escape. It's a matter of still having a recognizable personal point of reference on Earth to get back to.
          This point I strongly disagree.
          I believe that for example my Mum has more emotional anchors to the people and places in the 60's than to the 90's.
          If the quoted sentence would have been written about the time period of the Durance then I would agree. Fifty years in Faerie makes every memories more than a little bit fuzzy. But it was about IRL time and I still think that 50 years are too rigorous.
          I think that a veteran of Normandy, abducted in the fifties could have more recognizable point of references than me, abducted ten years before.

          Anyways, using most of the text as guidelines rather than irreconcilable rules is a good advice - so I will reshape my Clarity ladder to better fit to the setting and social environment.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Insane•kismanO View Post
            Knowing something is different from "seriously shocked by something".
            In my teenage years I've had an accident and woke up in the hospital.
            I knew that something is wrong, I felt that it hurt and many things changed, but facing with it the first time and seeing my broken face, scars and bruises all together was a Breaking Point for me IRL.
            Changelings at character creation have had time to get to grips with their altered state even if they weren't already aware that they'd been through an ordeal.

            I meant that a Changeling is foredoomed to loose most of her Clarity in a relatively short period, facing with all of the changes (pun not intended) at the beginning.
            You meant that if you treat a character from character creation as though they were fresh out of the woods and had no idea how being a changeling worked then they would get plinked down the scale immediately, despite basic common sense indicating that that's not how it works.

            I thought that "Actively harming a mortal by ravaging their dreams." is a Changeling thing, but nowadays it's more a Beast territory.
            It has literally never been presented as a particularly common activity for changelings to do in Lost.

            Why is it more serious to raid an Egyptian tomb than a burglary / to join a Hunter group and decimate the local Kindred than manslaughter / to rob the Magi in a Ponzi-scheme than raid the local elderly home?
            "We're breaking down the magical door of a vampire's mausoleum stronghold. Is this Faerie? I can't really tell because we seem to be fucking around with a lot more monsters than is usual for Earth."

            So, you suggest that previously trained / conditioned criminals, members of the law enforcement and military, even member of some religious orders with strict rules should avoid their former life to hold on their Clarity because they were strong and agile enough to escape the magical nightmares but soft and fragile enough to live by the slightly different mindset they were taught to.
            I suggest that being stuck with PTSD's horrible magically-backed second-cousin due to an extended stay in a plastic reality at the whim of capricious angel-fiends means these characters are going to be a lot better off not being in places where their agency is in question and their fundamental routines are disturbed on the regular.

            This point I strongly disagree.
            The main street intersection of my hometown has changed so drastically in the last ten years that I would not be able to tell you what it looked like when I was in kindergarten. If I were taken as a child and had only a strong memory of the bakery that used to be there to go off of to find my way back I would not be able to find my way back, because my reference point no longer exists. You cannot seriously claim that this interpretation did not occur to you, because it is explicitly stated in the very next sentence after the one you quoted:

            In the former case [infants and very young children], they can’t recall enough details; in the latter [abducted more than fifty years ago], the details of their homes have almost indubitably changed beyond recognition.


            Resident Sanguinary Analyst
            Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
              You meant that if you treat a character from character creation as though they were fresh out of the woods and had no idea how being a changeling worked then they would get plinked down the scale immediately, despite basic common sense indicating that that's not how it works.
              I think it's important to emphasize this, especially because I've seen it come up, occasionally, in other gamelines, too.
              Starting splat characters are not day one changelings/vampires/werewolves etc any more than a starting mortal is necessarily an infant.

              We don't know how the splats look in those formative days/weeks/months/years.
              For all we know, Changelings don't even form Clarity until after that initial acclimation period has passed.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                Changelings at character creation have had time to get to grips with their altered state even if they weren't already aware that they'd been through an ordeal.
                o.O Please add a reference, where was it stated like you suggest. In that spirit, there are no "last day of durance" and escape stories.

                You meant that if you treat a character from character creation as though they were fresh out of the woods and had no idea how being a changeling worked then they would get plinked down the scale immediately, despite basic common sense indicating that that's not how it works.
                Reference again, please. Citing "common sense" is a bit condescending while you present an opinion.
                Playing "fresh out of the woods" characters is supposed to be the basic thing but you are strongly suggesting that the mere idea is preposterous.

                Oh, and the other thing - it is my bad that I haven't stated explicitly that "the continuous shocks of the brand new experiences if played truthfully to the rules resulting so many Braking Points that the victim statistically predestined to lose a handful of Clarity points in the first half year" and you continuously implying that I meant that it is absolutely automatic.
                I don't know if it's really my bad or am I bothering you or what...

                It has literally never been presented as a particularly common activity for changelings to do in Lost.
                Well, Dancers in the Dusk p. 14-49 somehow suggesting otherwise.

                "We're breaking down the magical door of a vampire's mausoleum stronghold. Is this Faerie? I can't really tell because we seem to be fucking around with a lot more monsters than is usual for Earth."
                Instead of coping with the facts that the world is full of nightmares, the Lost continuously in doubt about their own sanity. I pretty much like this approach.

                I suggest that being stuck with PTSD's horrible magically-backed second-cousin due to an extended stay in a plastic reality at the whim of capricious angel-fiends means these characters are going to be a lot better off not being in places where their agency is in question and their fundamental routines are disturbed on the regular.
                That's not an answer to my question. There are people who were conditioned to act outside the simpleton way of life. Trained to be violent, dishonest, hurt or even kill other people when it is necessary. The "returning to the NORMAL life" to them, applying the well-know routines and acts to regain the stability of the previously known life with all of its rules - it requires a Clarity scale what is different from what was presented in the core book.

                The main street intersection of my hometown has changed so drastically in the last ten years that I would not be able to tell you what it looked like when I was in kindergarten. If I were taken as a child and had only a strong memory of the bakery that used to be there to go off of to find my way back I would not be able to find my way back, because my reference point no longer exists. You cannot seriously claim that this interpretation did not occur to you, because it is explicitly stated in the very next sentence after the one you quoted:
                Deliberate misinterpretation again. I was bothered by the 50 years rule, you are talking about the other side of the spectrum.

                I don't know about the rest of the world but in Europe things tend to be a little bit more lasting. Not everything, of course, but enough things remains the same to provide an emotional anchor.
                Just for the record, I've asked my Mum about the most important of emotional anchors from the 60's and checked them online / personally today:
                • her grandparent's home and the department store next to it – the home is renovated / the store is refurbished but the place of the old neon lights are still visible on the frontage
                • the doorway of the same house, where she was first kissed – safe and sound (doesn't looks to be changed too much since then, shame to the owners)
                • the square and a statue where she met with her friends for chat and booze – still intact
                • the field and viewpoint where they played – still there
                • the outdoor concert place they visited frequently – renovated and reopened after some thirty years of neglect
                • her elementary school and the lime trees in the garden – never better
                So, I really think that she might escape clinging to these reference points.

                Anyways, it seems like Rites of Spring changed the rules, so our debate is a little bit pointless: "It is all but unheard of for changelings who have spent more than 100 years in Arcadia to return. Most Anachronistic Lost will have come from no later than the early 1900s, but even a century provides plenty of challenges for a returning fae."
                100 years are just fine, as I've stated at the beginning.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Insane•kismanO View Post
                  o.O Please add a reference, where was it stated like you suggest. In that spirit, there are no "last day of durance" and escape stories.
                  Storytelling the Prelude and the fact that you can start the game as part of a Court with no special consideration.

                  The game is built on the assumption that your character doesn't need the basics of their condition explained to them just like your Medicine 3 doctor doesn't need to be walked through how to use a first-aid kid.

                  If you're playing a game about those first-day-back experiences, that is a decision you have made as a Storyteller; as presented, the books are written for starting characters to be at least minimally established in their placement within the setting and able to do the things that their positions imply without difficulty outside of dramatic circumstances.

                  A special note should be made regarding two specific instances: Combat and Clarity loss. In both cases, consider very carefully whether you want to allow the dice to determine the outcomes. No one wants to invest time and thought in creating a character only to have him die before the game starts, and a player may not want to begin the game at a Clarity deficit.
                  Reference again, please. Citing "common sense" is a bit condescending while you present an opinion.
                  Playing "fresh out of the woods" characters is supposed to be the basic thing but you are strongly suggesting that the mere idea is preposterous.
                  I'm not saying the mere idea is preposterous, I'm saying that the game is not written for that to be "the basic thing," else the game would not have Court mechanics baked into the character generation quick-reference.

                  Oh, and the other thing - it is my bad that I haven't stated explicitly that "the continuous shocks of the brand new experiences if played truthfully to the rules resulting so many Braking Points that the victim statistically predestined to lose a handful of Clarity points in the first half year" and you continuously implying that I meant that it is absolutely automatic.
                  Breaking points in 1e get no better pool than six dice at the absolute best and the higher pools fall out of consideration entirely as your Clarity drops.
                  I don't know if it's really my bad or am I bothering you or what...
                  It is extremely difficult to believe you are approaching the rules in good faith when you've read Rites of Spring, the book that goes into greater detail on the rationale behind each and every one of the corebook's Clarity breaking points, and think that a changeling character is statistically likely to undergo "continuous shocks of brand new experiences" after returning to Earth within their first six months back and that prompting degeneration rolls for these things is "playing truthfully to the rules."

                  Well, Dancers in the Dusk p. 14-49 somehow suggesting otherwise.
                  Dancers in the Dusk is the book I most recently finished rereading. It does not present "Actively harming a mortal by ravaging their dreams" — a process which most closely fits the oneiromancy section's use of dreamscaping to craft nightmares and/or inflicting derangements through extreme damage in oneiromachy — as a common behavior for changelings, whose interaction with dreams is highly dependent upon the promises they use to get there in the first palce. You appear to think that the breaking point in question refers to any dreamwalking whatsoever, judging from your reaction, and you would be incorrect to do so.

                  That's not an answer to my question. There are people who were conditioned to act outside the simpleton way of life. Trained to be violent, dishonest, hurt or even kill other people when it is necessary. The "returning to the NORMAL life" to them, applying the well-know routines and acts to regain the stability of the previously known life with all of its rules - it requires a Clarity scale what is different from what was presented in the core book.
                  It does not, in fact, require a completely different Clarity scale just because living in the manner to which they were once accustomed is now associated with their time in Faerie. A character is allowed to stabilize at a lower rating, but the way Clarity works privileges characters who can keep their word and hold onto a stable lifestyle by design.

                  Deliberate misinterpretation again. I was bothered by the 50 years rule, you are talking about the other side of the spectrum.
                  "The 50 years rule" is "Characters who were taken more than fifty years ago in Earth years likely have few strong personal anchors that would not have changed their tenor significantly in that time, such that their memories are unlikely to match up with the current reality." That's a statement of general likelihood based on factors external to the character. What even is "the other side of the spectrum" in that scenario?

                  So, I really think that she might escape clinging to these reference points.
                  Your rationale here is that because isolated pictures of the places — and in some cases pictures of isolated parts of those places — are the same, the emotional connection your mother holds to those locations — as a person who has not been mutated out of her human body and frame of reference by fifty years in a place that can reasonably be liked to the experience of a psychotropic drug trip — is comparable to the core shreds of memory a changeling would hold onto about a place that is important to them at the level of I broke out of God's dollhouse for this and leads back to a place that is, in the grand scheme of things, fundamentally and thematically almost the same place.

                  I don't know how else to tell you that renovations are a meaningful and substantial degree of change in a setting where the supernatural is pervasive and anachronistic by inclination.


                  Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                  Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

                  Comment


                  • Although I still disagree with you in some points, all of your replies gave me interesting points of view and an impulsion to thoroughly read again each and every books (and make notes… sooo many notes). So, thank you.

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                    • Related to some points raised in the recent exchanges:

                      Is there a representation in the published books of the experience for Changelings who have freshly escaped? Perhaps some of the story beats they should pass through to arrive at "starting character" situation?


                      Thanks,
                      --Khanwulf

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