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Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer: Changeling Edition

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  • Originally posted by Unahim View Post
    Is Inciting Bedlam always going to incur the "Using Glamour to force someone to change their behavior." Clarity Attack? (Well, not if you do it involuntarily I guess, since you use no Glamour then... Actually, if you use a Contract's Loophole, does that also mean it can't qualify for this?) Or is that only if you actively -force- them, rather than influencing their behaviour through their emotions? I'm leaning towards the latter, since people are not forced to behave a certain way if you change their emotions, they can still fully decide on their actions and ignore their emotions potentially?
    I'm still hoping for a simple answer to this. :O Or is this complex enough to need its own thread?

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    • There's a sidebar on 105 that refers to changing people's desires as grounds for a breaking point. As opposed to the more strict reading of forcing them to act a certain way, it seems pretty clear that mucking around in someone's mind/emotions without their consent is going to lead to breaking points regardless of outcome. I'm also fairly certain that "spending glamour" is intended to mean "using Changeling magic as opposed to normal social maneuvering" and that loopholes don't protect you from the ethical or mental ramifications of abusing your powers.

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      • Originally posted by HelmsDerp View Post
        There's a sidebar on 105 that refers to changing people's desires as grounds for a breaking point. As opposed to the more strict reading of forcing them to act a certain way, it seems pretty clear that mucking around in someone's mind/emotions without their consent is going to lead to breaking points regardless of outcome. I'm also fairly certain that "spending glamour" is intended to mean "using Changeling magic as opposed to normal social maneuvering" and that loopholes don't protect you from the ethical or mental ramifications of abusing your powers.
        Hey, good catch! "wouldn't normally agree to" is pretty vague though, I think whenever you're using one of these powers they wouldn't "normally agree to it", else why use the power if they would otherwise just agree? :P
        A grand majority of Contracts inflict emotional Conditions on a target, so I don't think simply slapping one of those on is intended to virtually always be a breaking point. The "forcing a desire on someone" here sounds like a deeper change than just making them feel a certain emotion.

        It sounds like good rule of thumb is: If it is something the target could be made to feel with high enough mundane rolls, but the Contract simply takes a shortcut or enhances it, it is probably ok. So for instances, using a Contract to make someone Frightened of you is alright since it's "just" supercharged Intimidation skill, and you could supposedly achieve the same by having very high Intimidation skills and a good roll. But making an asexual person sleep with you by using Tumult on them to make them Wanton, Swooning and Obsessed with you is going against their fundamental nature, and no Persuasion roll would ever be enough, so it is a Breaking Point.

        That's how I'm reading it right now...
        Last edited by Unahim; 08-09-2019, 07:29 PM.

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        • You could theoretically use Spring's Contracts to temporarily change an unhealthy desire into something the person wants to want. There have been times in my life where I would have gladly paid someone to magic an unreciprocated crush into a desire to do the yard work I was neglecting for lack of motivation, for example.

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          • Originally posted by HelmsDerp View Post
            You could theoretically use Spring's Contracts to temporarily change an unhealthy desire into something the person wants to want. There have been times in my life where I would have gladly paid someone to magic an unreciprocated crush into a desire to do the yard work I was neglecting for lack of motivation, for example.
            I think that still falls under "theoretically, mundane means could be used to make you feel/desire/do that.", and thus fits into that "rule of thumb". If someone was a great motivationalist, they could talk you into it!

            I'd been trying to hit the gym for ages, never managed to get to that point. But someone finally told me a really inspiring story about their past, and just totally fired me up to finally make the change. Sort of like that. ^^

            But perhaps going by specific Contracts is more useful: Would you say that "Overpowering Dread" is pretty much always a Clarity attack? I would say not, because the Changeling is only being supernaturally scary. They're not rewriting the target's emotions in great detail or directly, and certainly not touching their desires.
            Last edited by Unahim; 08-10-2019, 10:28 AM.

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            • How do you go about finding a specific Bastion? A Dreaming Road is described as a trod, and trods only link a finite number of endpoints together, so how does that work? Do you need to go through the Gate of ivory, step out onto the Dreaming Road connected to your Bastion, then go through the Gate of Horn, traverse the Hedge, find the correct Dreaming Road and go through its Gate of Horn? But all of humanity is linked up through the Dreaming Roads, right, so shouldn't need to leave the Roads at all to find any dream... right? I'm confused. :P

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              • Originally posted by Unahim View Post
                How do you go about finding a specific Bastion?
                The established method, at least, is to use a Hedgespinning paradigm shift to learn the direction of a specific dreamer's Bastion and go from there.

                A Dreaming Road is described as a trod, and trods only link a finite number of endpoints together, so how does that work? Do you need to go through the Gate of ivory, step out onto the Dreaming Road connected to your Bastion, then go through the Gate of Horn, traverse the Hedge, find the correct Dreaming Road and go through its Gate of Horn? But all of humanity is linked up through the Dreaming Roads, right, so shouldn't need to leave the Roads at all to find any dream... right? I'm confused. :P
                "Some Bastions have more than one exit, opening out onto different Dreaming Roads depending on how their dreams harmonize with the snatches of nightmare or reverie that lie along each."

                We will probably have more details in The Hedge or Oak, Ash, and Thorn.


                Resident Lore-Hound
                Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  The established method, at least, is to use a Hedgespinning paradigm shift to learn the direction of a specific dreamer's Bastion and go from there.
                  Can you do that while on a Dreaming Road, or do you have to get off of it first?

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                  • Originally posted by Unahim View Post
                    Can you do that while on a Dreaming Road, or do you have to get off of it first?
                    The latter, since Hedgespinning doesn't work in the Dreaming Roads.


                    Resident Lore-Hound
                    Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                    • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                      The latter, since Hedgespinning doesn't work in the Dreaming Roads.
                      Thank you very kindly for the answers.

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                      • Hi
                        Do you guys draw(?) Hedge maps for the games? Thank you .

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                        • Originally posted by Dexter View Post
                          Hi
                          Do you guys draw(?) Hedge maps for the games? Thank you .
                          1) Nope. Hedge changes too much for that.
                          2) For a split second, I thought someone was using my account on here before I remembered I haven't used that avatar since 2010, so that's fun. Also, you have good taste in avatars.


                          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                          Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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