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  • Originally posted by Errol216 View Post
    So, first, I'm also disappointed that there's been no indication of any guides on how to create-your-own, and that these mechanics aren't part of the write-up. Still hoping the guides'll be in the fourth preview, I suppose.
    The only chapter left to be previewed is the chapter which is described to be: "Storytelling advice, including Chronicle-building, rules for creating new Courts and Contracts, and player safety advice." So that sort of information makes sense to have not appeared in the previews yet.

    But I think Emotion and Bedlam are pretty easy to hack. Unless I'm missing something, the Emotion bit merely gives the Changeling an extra Glamour upon harvest if it's favored. That's easy to houserule: every player just picks an emotion for themselves, preferably resonant with the Court they're joining, but I don't think it's a big deal to disassociate that with the Court. The settings courts generally seem to move this extra Glamour point into a non-emotion-based harvesting anyways (gain a point when X happens); I think that's a better general approach than requiring an emotion be pegged to a court, anyways: it's more flexible.
    Except the courts which have been previewed don't seem to have any ties to any emotions, and it seems very odd that the "default" court system would be the only court system which follows the glamour rules that each court gives a bonus to feeding from a specific emotion.

    The Bedlam bit has two parts: the Condition inflicted, and the fact that it's easier/harder to inflict a particular one based on Seasonal stuff. Harder to houserule, but I'd find it reasonable to just pick one of the four as a favored emotion, or to have the table agree on some set of Conditions that you're allowed to inflict. (This is the kind of thing you can tap the community for creating new emotion/condition pairs, though, too.) For easier/harder, the simplest solution is to say that you can get a +2 or +3 for a favored Condition, in return for -2/-3 for all the rest, or don't favor any. Sledgehammer approach to houseruling, but I think it'll do in a pinch.
    Needing to make up sets conditions to use any of the premade settings is the exact sort of thing for why I think the amount of material they provided isn't enough, and it'd be pretty dumb to just use one of the four considering it would often be a giant stretch to justify them.

    The Give&Take you'd have to come up with whole cloth, though. Not impossible, but definitely some real work. I'd love to see the forum take a crack at coming up with those, though.
    No one is suggesting it's impossible, I'm suggesting it's dumb to ignore something which matters so much to how a freehold functions.

    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    I think part of the difficulty in understanding the complaint, is that you never have to make up Courts, or Contracts, or whatever. You can just use the fully flushed out stuff in the books. There's nothing wrong with playing a Seasonal Court game until someone else does the other sample Courts a full write-up.
    What if I want to run a game which isn't in America or Europe....?
    Last edited by milo v3; 11-30-2017, 04:34 AM.


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    • Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post

      I disagree, is one of the things I loath in a game when it ask me to play game developer for them. If i have to run a game I dislike to also having to think powers from the ground up, I have to run a game and i cant get people just to playtest if a power is broken or too weak. And i lack the knowledge on how to make one.

      If the game ask me to make fluff justifications for how and why the courts function? Sure that is reasonable. It doesnt require the knowledge in making mechanics or playtesting.

      Same thing with the seeming variants and only including 2 of for contract with the game telling me

      "The Contracts below present two seeming benefits each, but Storytellers are encouraged to add their own."

      When some of the seeming benefits change radically the use of a contract. That road leads to things like "Diplomat’s Protection" ( a very OP rote in mage).

      This isnt like games like FATE/AW in which tell you to make any effect because in the end they are just window dressing and just define when you get to roll the same diceroll or a +/- that only range from 1 to 5.

      This mechanics are more complex to balance. And to me the OPP not putting mechanics and dropping the responsability on me is something I feel is unreasonable, like buying an novel with its last chapter as blank pages with a pencil and message of "let your imagination fly".

      I was full on board with Changeling 2nd from that i read and even the elements i dislike (Pledges, dreams and clarity) were easy enough to ignore/use 1st edition version. But that attitude that also came from Werewolf, is big drawback to me to the point I am considering dropping my pledge.
      Let's not be hasty, this may get addressed in the companion.

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      • Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
        What if I want to run a game which isn't in America or Europe....?
        Set it somewhere the Seasonal Courts make sense, or reskin them but keep their mechanics so you don't have to homebrew them, etc.

        Last time I checked, a rather large part of Asia is in the northern temperate zone to have the same default four seasons as (most of) Europe, Canada, and the US. Chile, Argentina, and a few other parts of South America are in the southern band, as is the southern tip of South Africa, Australia, and most of New Zealand. Or screw local weather and decide a place has been Westernized enough that people honor the four seasons strongly enough there that the Seasonal Courts work as mystical entities even though the local scientific climates don't operate that way. You can even use that for some story hooks.

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        • Originally posted by MhicWombat View Post
          Does this suggest that every PC/NPC should be based on a specific fairy tale? I realize from a fair amount of personal research that the world of folklore is very broad, but it also means a bit of searching, if you are interested in a particular type of character.
          Nah. The role your Keeper puts you in can be a fairy tale, or it could be as a gladiator, to a garden statue. People tend towards fairy tale roles just because, well, that's kinda what the game is about. But it really could be anything.

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          • Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
            Except the courts which have been previewed don't seem to have any ties to any emotions, and it seems very odd that the "default" court system would be the only court system which follows the glamour rules that each court gives a bonus to feeding from a specific emotion.
            Considering that Glamour is harvested from emotion, it does make sense that each court would give a bonus to feeding from emotion. The conditions a courtier gains a free glamour from does work as a hint for what emotion they work on.

            For the sake of example: the Society of Morning gains a glamour by gaining knowledge through reckless pursuit. That sounds like Giddiness/Excitement to me, and the mantle benefits work well with that; being giddy to know something new, or to gossip with others. The Society of Day gains one by resolving a conflict, and its mantle benefits grant bonuses to basically improve and repair items or relationships, which to me speaks of Pride, the ego that you are the one to solve these problems that others could/do not (though Irritation works too). The Society of Night gains a glamour from following a hunt to its logical conclusion and its mantle benefits solving, deliberating or dealing with problems; Stubbornness springs to mind, though that doesn't sound entirely like an emotion.

            There are other interpretations, but emotions can be found in both the actions that grant glamour and what the mantle benefits are too.

            ...hmm, this actually gave me some insight into how to improve my own freehold currently.

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            • On the matter of Courts:

              Its plain to see that Seasonal is not only the default, its very heavily built into the game's default assumptions to the point of influencing how Seemings work. Given the sheer amount of effort to create a new Court - above and beyond pretty much any other gameline as far as I can tell - its inevitable that a number of people are going to be unhappy with the presentation. Especially when each setting has a unique court system that can't be used without "fixing" them.

              I personally don't think its asking for too much to have these example settings we have to be playable. With Vampire, the "new" covenants in the equivalent chapter were all playable, if mechanically lite; and that's not counting the settings that tweaked the existing Covenants in new ways, no mechanical changes needed. I could start up a game using any of those settings with no problem. With Werewolf and Mage, you kept the default 5 tribes/orders. Demon, Promethean and Beast settings don't rely on their y-axis at all, or any other mechanics. Changeling, however, is presenting each setting with an unique court system that you need to sit down and patch to make functional at the base.

              Right now, we have this... dissonance going on. The setting chapter is presenting all these options and different courts... that will very likely never be used by the overwhelming majority of games. The default is Seasonal. Making new takes a lot of effort, prohibitively so for what I imagine is the vast majority of changeling gamers. Realistically expecting

              And I'm going to be clear on this point. Court Contracts are necessary for many games. We can talk a big game about how you don't need Court Contracts, but I can tell you from personal experience that many players find that to be quite dissatisfying. Gamers tend to like fun powers. Its a thing. If the powers aren't there, the players will, on average, have less fun. Based on my personal experience and what I've heard from other STs, and even other GMs in other games, this seems to hold true. Yes, ideally, you don't need the powers or mechanics to have fun, but from what I've seen and heard, it absolutely adds to the game for a large number of people.

              Earlier, someone called the different setting chapter useless. I'm not going to go that far; I'm sure that some people will find them inspirational for something (I'm not one of them), but I can't help but feel that we would be far better served by showing the Seasonal Courts in these settings, rather than some unplayable Court systems. Barring a future book that makes these, or other, Courts playable, the majority of games are going to be using Seasonal, and I think it would have been far more helpful to showcase how these four Courts change depending on where you go. Like... a Vegas game has the four Courts identify with suits of cards, and they weave rituals of poker and blackjack games into their Season. I did that back in 1e, and it was fun.

              I can completely understand how a number of people feel upset over this. It can feel almost deceptive. See, you can have any Court system you want. Its easy. You just need to write this up, and then... oh, wait, forgot all the other bits. And your players would like Contracts. And... and it just keeps building until it feels impossible to get done. Or literally becomes impossible, because we're busy people who want to have fun, not do hours worth of homework in order to have fun, and we need to socialize with our friends and family.

              Personally, I think we just all have to step back from this issue. Its unfortunate, but people are going to have to accept that Changeling is the game of Seasonal Courts. That may change in the future, or with massive amounts of homebrew material (which might put off groups as well, so that's another factor to consider), but right now, I feel that is our only realistic option at this given point in time. It is what it is. Deny it, get mad, try to bargain, get depressed, whatever it takes, but in the end, its something we either have to accept, or just leave the game behind.

              Instead, we can all grumble about my pet peeve with the material - the lack of mirror monsters and dream critters! Yay! ((Please pause for coughing and crickets)) Jokes aside, I feel like I'm going to need to start working up some rules for mirror'd parts of the hedge, as well as consider what kind of critters inhabit these areas. Hobs don't quite fit, in my opinion, for various reasons, and I'm not quite sure of my grasp of hedge ghosts yet. Like, I can grok strix, spirits, regular ghosts and angels. All of them have quirks and abilities and motivations that tie into how they operate and how they get essence. I'm not quite sure on what hedge ghosts do yet - they feel just kinda... there.

              Also, I wonder if Mirror Space should use regular hedge rules, or if it needs its own quirks like the Dreaming Roads do?

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              • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                No amount of reading is going to make a double handful of Dread Powers and Numina with relatively self-explanatory names equate to "basically all of [the game's] antagonist rules."
                Also, if it's not been done already - It sounds like the sort of thing that should be brought to the designers attention. Either include the powers or remove them from the NPCs. It's not that difficult.

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                • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  I think part of the difficulty in understanding the complaint, is that you never have to make up Courts, or Contracts, or whatever. You can just use the fully flushed out stuff in the books. There's nothing wrong with playing a Seasonal Court game until someone else does the other sample Courts a full write-up.

                  Nothing in CtL 2e so far (or the CofD 1e or 2e in general, or even Exalted for that matter) have ever said, "you have to homebrew to use this game." Homebrew is certainly encouraged, and the games make it clear that the fully flushed out options presented are not meant to be the totality of the setting. But you never have to homebrew to use the game.
                  Demon requires homebrew to design interlocks for each character. It's recommended that the Storyteller design three unique powers for every player character very early on so they can start guessing which embeds are part of the cipher sequence. I agree that changeling doesn't seem to require homebrew rules to fill in any gaps though.


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                  • Originally posted by MCN View Post
                    On the matter of Courts:

                    Its plain to see that Seasonal is not only the default, its very heavily built into the game's default assumptions to the point of influencing how Seemings work. Given the sheer amount of effort to create a new Court - above and beyond pretty much any other gameline as far as I can tell - its inevitable that a number of people are going to be unhappy with the presentation. Especially when each setting has a unique court system that can't be used without "fixing" them.

                    I personally don't think its asking for too much to have these example settings we have to be playable. With Vampire, the "new" covenants in the equivalent chapter were all playable, if mechanically lite; and that's not counting the settings that tweaked the existing Covenants in new ways, no mechanical changes needed. I could start up a game using any of those settings with no problem. With Werewolf and Mage, you kept the default 5 tribes/orders. Demon, Promethean and Beast settings don't rely on their y-axis at all, or any other mechanics. Changeling, however, is presenting each setting with an unique court system that you need to sit down and patch to make functional at the base.

                    Right now, we have this... dissonance going on. The setting chapter is presenting all these options and different courts... that will very likely never be used by the overwhelming majority of games. The default is Seasonal. Making new takes a lot of effort, prohibitively so for what I imagine is the vast majority of changeling gamers. Realistically expecting

                    And I'm going to be clear on this point. Court Contracts are necessary for many games. We can talk a big game about how you don't need Court Contracts, but I can tell you from personal experience that many players find that to be quite dissatisfying. Gamers tend to like fun powers. Its a thing. If the powers aren't there, the players will, on average, have less fun. Based on my personal experience and what I've heard from other STs, and even other GMs in other games, this seems to hold true. Yes, ideally, you don't need the powers or mechanics to have fun, but from what I've seen and heard, it absolutely adds to the game for a large number of people.

                    Earlier, someone called the different setting chapter useless. I'm not going to go that far; I'm sure that some people will find them inspirational for something (I'm not one of them), but I can't help but feel that we would be far better served by showing the Seasonal Courts in these settings, rather than some unplayable Court systems. Barring a future book that makes these, or other, Courts playable, the majority of games are going to be using Seasonal, and I think it would have been far more helpful to showcase how these four Courts change depending on where you go. Like... a Vegas game has the four Courts identify with suits of cards, and they weave rituals of poker and blackjack games into their Season. I did that back in 1e, and it was fun.

                    I can completely understand how a number of people feel upset over this. It can feel almost deceptive. See, you can have any Court system you want. Its easy. You just need to write this up, and then... oh, wait, forgot all the other bits. And your players would like Contracts. And... and it just keeps building until it feels impossible to get done. Or literally becomes impossible, because we're busy people who want to have fun, not do hours worth of homework in order to have fun, and we need to socialize with our friends and family.

                    Personally, I think we just all have to step back from this issue. Its unfortunate, but people are going to have to accept that Changeling is the game of Seasonal Courts. That may change in the future, or with massive amounts of homebrew material (which might put off groups as well, so that's another factor to consider), but right now, I feel that is our only realistic option at this given point in time. It is what it is. Deny it, get mad, try to bargain, get depressed, whatever it takes, but in the end, its something we either have to accept, or just leave the game behind.

                    Instead, we can all grumble about my pet peeve with the material - the lack of mirror monsters and dream critters! Yay! ((Please pause for coughing and crickets)) Jokes aside, I feel like I'm going to need to start working up some rules for mirror'd parts of the hedge, as well as consider what kind of critters inhabit these areas. Hobs don't quite fit, in my opinion, for various reasons, and I'm not quite sure of my grasp of hedge ghosts yet. Like, I can grok strix, spirits, regular ghosts and angels. All of them have quirks and abilities and motivations that tie into how they operate and how they get essence. I'm not quite sure on what hedge ghosts do yet - they feel just kinda... there.

                    Also, I wonder if Mirror Space should use regular hedge rules, or if it needs its own quirks like the Dreaming Roads do?
                    There are dream critters, Important Eidolons, Extra Eidolons, living Props, Hedge Ghosts (some Hedge Ghosts could have their origins in Dream Bastions or prefer to live in them).

                    Then there are Hobgoblins with Dream Steps contract, Huntsmen, and True Fae visiting the dreams.

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                    • I would have been fine with Seasonal Courts being treated as default by the rules if discussion before hand didn't suggest otherwise. I was really looking forward for making my own Courts but amount of work it takes now if just disheartening.
                      Denying players access to Seasonal Contracts is tough, especially so if I have to try to create my own collection to replace them!
                      Bedlam Rules are aggressively non-compatible with non-Seasonal Courts, it feels like they were copied full cloth from 1st edition without consideration for more fluid Court system.

                      It's incredibly frustrating. I can totally work with Season Courts, I even like them, but I pledged my money and hyped for 2e while being promised flexible and easy to implement custom Court rules. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Manuscript Previews simply don't deliver on this, and I am filling rather pessimistic about Custom Court Rules.
                      Last edited by Weird; 11-30-2017, 12:47 PM.

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                      • aaaand I'm a backer. I had to get a debt card especially for this event, but it does looks like it would worth the hassle :P


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                        • Originally posted by Weird View Post
                          The fact that Seasonal Courts don't have Harvests
                          They're in the Mantle Merit.


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                          • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                            They're in the Mantle Merit.
                            Ah, I stand corrected. The difference in formatting was bit misleading. Thank you. I shall edit my reply immediately.

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                            • I have to confess that I really can't see the difficulty in creating new court contracts as needed, or to borrow as appropriate from any of the existing Arcadian/Seasonal/Goblin contracts.

                              Maybe I'm not seeing some obvious problem with a scenario like "I'm playing a Night Society assassin, so can I take this Mirror power and this Winter one as court contracts? And can I make a new contract that lets me create a dagger out of shadows?" The answer would be "Sure," or maybe "I'm concerned the new contract is too easy to use. Let's make the Loophole one bashing damage of your own spilled blood left on the scene."

                              The principle, I do understand. Big chunks of the world don't have four seasons. But it seems like people are worried about a workload that isn't going to be much of anything, once actual play starts.

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                              • Also, thinking about the Give & Take of the Dragon Court:

                                As long as the three societies are "in harmony" (i.e. not in open conflict of any kind), then the Gentry are forced to be polite in the human world of Hong Kong. No kidnapping, no wanton brutality... This doesn't apply in the Hedge, and it's arguable how much Societal infiltration from the mainland might eventually count as "disharmony."

                                Just one idea.

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