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  • Originally posted by Second Chances View Post
    Can you unpack this a bit more? I found the Kith and Court guides to be very concrete. Contracts, admittedly I would like some explicit benchmarks, but I think they are still workable.
    Well the Trickery guideline is essentially "glamour and dice pool to do a thing, except when it isn't." There's no real scaling considerations here. The Hunterheart's hitting with the insensate tilt may be fine, but the immobolized tilt might be a bit much. What buffs are acceptable? Is Wyrd an ok damage bonus? even for a ranged attack?

    Mantle is a little better in that it has a few more actual specifics that can be applied in a variety of contexts, but you'd still have a hard time matching the canon mantles with just those guidelines.

    A brief list of splats that don't really fit any guidelines listed:

    Artist kith (its a self buff)
    Bright One (debuff with no roll)
    Leechfinger (offensive effect with no roll)
    Notary (no roll or cost)
    Playmate (no roll, weird cost)

    Summer Mantle (Grants points of armor, Automatic Success effect on the 4th dot not the 5th)
    Autumn Mantle (Effects Glamour costs and Goblin Debt)
    Winter Mantle (Non-roll Debuff at 4 dot)
    Morning Mantle (Automatic Success at 4 dots)
    Day Mantle (Effects glamour costs at 4)
    Icelandic Sprint Mantle (Grants merit at 1 dot)
    Icelandic Winter Mantle (Grants damage bonus)
    High Tide Mantle (Automatic Success at 4 dots)
    Low Tide Mantle(Interacts with investigation system)
    Coin Mantle (interacts with goblin debt)
    Barter Mantle (interacts with goblin debt)
    Favor Mantle (grants merit at 2 dots, more goblin debt)
    Shady Deals Mantle (More goblin debt, can ignore a condition)

    And for this list I ignored edge cases. (Like "have a +1 to your effective resistance attribute" shows up in a few places but it seems within the possibility of "bonus dice to a slightly broader roll".) I also just completely ignored the 5 dot mantles effects since "unique magical effect" covers a lot of ground, even if its not terribly helpful for balancing. And while thinking of an effect comparable to "inflict someone with tilt or condition" which shows up on a few kiths isn't too hard, I'd hesitate to say what is comparable to the Helldiver, who has a lot individual considerations that the rest don't.

    (For the record, I love the helldiver kith.)

    You can argue that some of these are clearly designed to be exceptions to the rule, but if at least 1 in 3 of them don't match the guidelines or the examples, they aren't really "fringe cases." I cannot build custom material with just the listed guidelines with any confidence that it will "fit" into the gameline without issues.

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    • Originally posted by schizoPOP View Post

      Well the Trickery guideline is essentially "glamour and dice pool to do a thing, except when it isn't." There's no real scaling considerations here. The Hunterheart's hitting with the insensate tilt may be fine, but the immobolized tilt might be a bit much. What buffs are acceptable? Is Wyrd an ok damage bonus? even for a ranged attack?

      Mantle is a little better in that it has a few more actual specifics that can be applied in a variety of contexts, but you'd still have a hard time matching the canon mantles with just those guidelines.

      A brief list of splats that don't really fit any guidelines listed:

      Artist kith (its a self buff)
      Bright One (debuff with no roll)
      Leechfinger (offensive effect with no roll)
      Notary (no roll or cost)
      Playmate (no roll, weird cost)

      Summer Mantle (Grants points of armor, Automatic Success effect on the 4th dot not the 5th)
      Autumn Mantle (Effects Glamour costs and Goblin Debt)
      Winter Mantle (Non-roll Debuff at 4 dot)
      Morning Mantle (Automatic Success at 4 dots)
      Day Mantle (Effects glamour costs at 4)
      Icelandic Sprint Mantle (Grants merit at 1 dot)
      Icelandic Winter Mantle (Grants damage bonus)
      High Tide Mantle (Automatic Success at 4 dots)
      Low Tide Mantle(Interacts with investigation system)
      Coin Mantle (interacts with goblin debt)
      Barter Mantle (interacts with goblin debt)
      Favor Mantle (grants merit at 2 dots, more goblin debt)
      Shady Deals Mantle (More goblin debt, can ignore a condition)

      And for this list I ignored edge cases. (Like "have a +1 to your effective resistance attribute" shows up in a few places but it seems within the possibility of "bonus dice to a slightly broader roll".) I also just completely ignored the 5 dot mantles effects since "unique magical effect" covers a lot of ground, even if its not terribly helpful for balancing. And while thinking of an effect comparable to "inflict someone with tilt or condition" which shows up on a few kiths isn't too hard, I'd hesitate to say what is comparable to the Helldiver, who has a lot individual considerations that the rest don't.

      (For the record, I love the helldiver kith.)

      You can argue that some of these are clearly designed to be exceptions to the rule, but if at least 1 in 3 of them don't match the guidelines or the examples, they aren't really "fringe cases." I cannot build custom material with just the listed guidelines with any confidence that it will "fit" into the gameline without issues.
      I think that the Trickery guidelines are more intended to act as an easy reference rather than a limit on what you can do with them. For example, the Chirurgeon update that I've been working on doesn't fit it perfectly, but I think that it would still fit the game anyway.


      Currently working on: DtD Night Horrors: Enemy Action
      Projects I've contributed to: C20 Anthology of Dreams ("No Such Thing As Dragons")

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      • Say it with Geoffery Rush now:



        Sean K.I.W. Steele, Freelance Writer
        Work Blog Coming Soon
        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

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        • <insert rant reiterating points I've already made>

          ...therefore the game in its current state will have an adverse impact on people who wish to play kiths beyond the twelve presented (which are by no means all-encompassing, nor should they be) or a non-seasonal court.

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          • I'm with ArcaneArts on this one. I am pretty sure that there is no power floor or ceiling on purpose. All of the 2nd Edition books have mostly done away with that concept as, in practice, power balance tends to be moot or at the very least very different to the white room scenario that the power balance was designed for.

            I think the bottom line with the creation of these powers and abilities is that there are many different things they could do and the examples give a large breadth of samples. In the end, don't worry about balance beyond what makes sense. For the bird like Kith focused on flight, giving it's ability to straight up fly might be too much and just adding a few inches to the jump height might not be enough. But you would be the best arbitrator on what makes most sense for your setting.

            Same goes for the Mantles, the Crowns, the Contracts, the Court Bargains, and other creation tools they've given in the appendix.

            If you want to not create anything (or just reskin a few things) use the fully fully fleshed out Seasonal Courts that most your troupe will immediately understand anyway. If you don't mind doing a few homebrewing but not everything, use one of the examples from the alternative courts listed in the 3rd preview and fill in the blanks using the creation tools in the 4th preview. And if you don't mind creating everything, just use the tools in the 4th preview.

            Don't worry too much on balance, you'd know best what makes sense power wise and more importantly: what is best at evoking what you want to evoke with that kith or court or contract or otherwise.
            Last edited by xiongrey; 12-06-2017, 03:14 PM.



            Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

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            • Originally posted by xiongrey View Post
              I'm with ArcaneArts on this one. I am pretty sure that there is no power floor or ceiling on purpose.
              Just because it was made on purpose I doesn't mean that is good.

              Originally posted by xiongrey View Post
              I think the bottom line with the creation of these powers and abilities is that there are many different things they could do and the examples give a large breadth of samples. In the end, don't worry about balance beyond what makes sense. For the bird like Kith focused on flight, giving it's ability to straight up fly might be too much and just adding a few inches to the jump height might not be enough. But you would be the best arbitrator on what makes most sense for your setting.

              Same goes for the Mantles, the Crowns, the Contracts, the Court Bargains, and other creation tools they've given in the appendix.

              If you want to not create anything (or just reskin a few things) use the fully fleshed out Seasonal Courts that most your troupe will immediately understand anyway. If you don't mind doing a few homebrewing but not everything, use one of the examples from the alternative courts listed in the 3rd preview and fill in the blanks using the creation tools in the 4th preview. And if you don't mind creating everything, just use the tools in the 4th preview.
              I would be on board with that if Chrod wasnt such a crunchy system. Its basically a Crunchy system with a designs philosophy of "balance doesn't matter" so they dont have to put effort on it. That kind of thing flies with systems like FATE/PbtA because their mechanics is 1 and everything else is just a paint job for the exact same bonuses. Any power or anything you do is "just +/- 1 to 5" and situation you can apply to it, nothing else and everything else is just fluff with no mechanical weight. While Chrod has many MANY moving parts and things that radically change how a mechanic works.

              Originally posted by xiongrey View Post
              Don't worry too much on balance, you'd know best what makes sense power wise and more importantly: what is best at evoking what you want to evoke with that kith or court or contract or otherwise.
              Actually no, many people don't know "whats best what makes sense power wise" that's why they pay for a game instead of just made one up themselves. You said flying for free is too much, I say is such as a useless ability that's is gonna see so little use because of the "masquerade" that's might as well be free (same with breathing underwater) whats best is not obvious.

              That kind of foresight to powers leads to OP things like "diplomatic immunity rote", "enchanting voice" merit in OWOD, Pure breed, etc. This a huge problem in Chrod lately it's avoiding of putting any kind of effort on their mechanic hiding behind the excuse of "balance doesn't exist".

              Personally, I don't have an issue with the Kiths as I will copy paste 1st editions seemings and kiths. But contracts are incredibly vague and thats a huge blow against the game. More if I care about making my own courts (which fortunately I don't because we got a write up for the directionals).

              But I already gonna have to ban tokens as there is no goddam mechanic on how to design powers for them. So I will probably stick around to how long the Kickstarter reaches before pulling my pledge the last day, as I cannot support that lazy design philosophy of OPP anymore. Unless something changes of course.

              Bear in mind, I am not calling the people who make this game lazy, they obviously put a lot of effort into making this game but OPP has a certain design philosophy of putting lots of effort in the fictions and little else in the mechanics and a worrying approach of leaving me, the consumer, to do their work for them in balancing mechanics hiding by a flawed ideology of "game balance doesn't exist" which has too many holes as a theory.
              Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 12-06-2017, 03:37 PM.

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              • For the record, I don't think Pop is wrong, per se-just the degree to which they are correct. I mean, compare this to the history of actual play reports involving such things without rules, and, well.

                Not wrong, particularly for certain play groups who are more common than we might think. I'm just not sure that that equals being right.

                EDIT: Sorry for vagueness, I am both learning how to make home security systems run as they should and editting a hard sci-fi novel while also sort of vaguely wanting to be helpful here.


                Sean K.I.W. Steele, Freelance Writer
                Work Blog Coming Soon
                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

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                • I'm going to hard disagree on this particular point, especially with the corollary that "this is how its supposed to work." If make a murderhobo kith who gets to add five to all forms of damage all the time always, it doesn't matter if it "makes sense" for the story. The same theme can in fact be implemented in ways that don't give a player a more pronounced advantage over the other. Game balance in CofD may be a bit more nuanced than just "who has the highest numbers," but that doesn't mean the concept has somehow vanished. Cult of Personality costs 10 vitae to activate for a reason.

                  And whether or not I particular mind isn't the issue. Its whether or not I can get 3-6 other people to be on the exact same page. I've run into both "let's stick with published mechanics" and "can I do this weird thing that doesn't really match anything printed?" Loose guidelines doesn't really cater to either, since its not going to satisfy the former, and the latter still needs to "sell" their pitch.

                  And I'm not arguing that this game is in any way unplayable, or even bad on its own merits. Just that in practice, with just information we have presented right now, when it comes to playing a non-seasonal or a kith outside of the twelve, the barrier for entry is no easier than playing an eighth clan or a 6th tribe, or whatever other splat whose respective gameline didn't feel the need to bring up custom material in the corebook.

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                  • I did notice the guidelines for making your own Kith and etc. were a little limited in that regard. They help (like the pertinent pointer that an exceptional success is worth more in some things like combat so relevant blessings need to be much more limited in scope), but in some things there are almost more examples in the book that balk the suggested guidelines than not.

                    Of course, the guidelines are just suggested standards, which are useful to fall back on if you're not use of how to handle something. The examples in and of themselves are useful, and there are a number of notes I appreciate that the creation rules have, but they suffer from not being more detailed and I wish there was a bit more lateral depth to them.

                    On a completely different note, the section on table safety and the attention throughout on the subject are still very good, and I'm quite happy the book has that.
                    Last edited by YeOfLittleFaith; 12-06-2017, 05:13 PM.

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                    • I must admit, the guidelines are less thorough than I'd have liked. However, much like Demon and its gadget creating rules, I'm confident that the companion books will address these problems. As it stands, it's something that works very well for me.

                      Does that mean that dissatisfaction with the product currently is unfair? Not at all. As I said before, judging something before we had the rules was silly - now that we have them, looking through them and judging them on their own merits is alright. I do feel that the current set-up is workable, but if you feel not, that's on you.

                      Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                      Finally got around to check the new preview, still no rules to how to design tokens

                      And the guide to making Contracts is barebones and doesn't take into account Seeming variations. At least the mantle construction is better done.
                      Wasn't that discussed last week? The players and ST work together for the effects, and the hardware as it were works towards that.

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                      • Originally posted by Taidragon View Post
                        Wasn't that discussed last week? The players and ST work together for the effects, and the hardware as it were works towards that.
                        I dont remember if that was a discussion in any of the updates. Yes any creation of any magic item requires the player and DM to determine the effect but then what effect correspond to what levels of point is up in the air.

                        Same with how to create drawbacks and catchs for the token. No guide whatsover that i could find in the manuscripts.

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                        • I guess I can understand your points Loki and Pop.

                          Coming from Demon that had Interlocks and a Final Truth that had a lot of variation that, on standard, the ST had to create (or get the players to create in some variants), putting work into the creation of new powers for non-standard courts and contracts seemed reasonable for me.



                          Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

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                          • Well, we WILL get the book Kith & Kine with at least few dozens of Kith, finally. So there WILL BE much more examples. But to the premier of it - what can take even to 2 years after finalization of CtL 2E - we are all left with corebook guidlines. 😕


                            Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
                            My Hubs - VtR 2E System Hacks, MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks

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                            • Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                              Well, we WILL get the book Kith & Kine with at least few dozens of Kith, finally. So there WILL BE much more examples. But to the premier of it - what can take even to 2 years after finalization of CtL 2E - we are all left with corebook guidlines. 😕
                              I think those two years will be for the physical edition; the digital edition should be along a good amount quicker due to the fact that PDFs can be altered easier if there are typos and such (which is what the Advanced copies are for). Physical editions are for after when the errata is compiled and corrected.

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                              • We are year and a half after Mage 2E premiere and STILL we do not have even PDF for Signs of Sorcery. I just point you all those supplements - CtL 2E Companion and Kith & Kine - they can TAKE AWHILE...


                                Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
                                My Hubs - VtR 2E System Hacks, MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks

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