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  • Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    We are year and a half after Mage 2E premiere and STILL we do not have even PDF for Signs of Sorcery. I just point you all those supplements - CtL 2E Companion and Kith & Kine - they can TAKE AWHILE...
    Oh! Sorry, I thought you were referencing the Changeling core book itself. I agree with you, supplements can take a good while before they're released. Hopefully they won't be too long, but given the given example...yeah, I can see your worry.

    Comment


    • Oh nice, it looks like a PDF + POD at cost item has been added a day or two ago.

      Suddenly backing this should be feasible.

      Comment


      • Was going to make a whole long post, but Imma just leave it at this from CtL's sister game:

        Dreams Do Not Follow Rules
        A foolish consistency,” wrote Emerson, “is the
        hobgoblin of little minds
        .” The process that we set out
        here to create new kiths can, in most cases, be used to
        “reverse engineer” the existing kiths… but exceptions
        exist. The very last step in the kith creation process is
        not “make sure everything is perfectly balanced with
        regards to game mechanics and that no kith is more
        powerful than any other,” but rather “make sure the
        kith represents your vision for it, and will be interesting
        and fun to play.”

        Throughout this process, please remember to
        mentally append “unless breaking this rule makes for
        a more interesting character” to anything that seems
        to apply as a blanket statement.
        When it comes to the custom stuff, as long as the players and ST are fine with it and have fun with whatever custom stuff they come up, that should be all that matters. Not worrying over how "balanced" it is.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
          When it comes to the custom stuff, as long as the players and ST are fine with it and have fun with whatever custom stuff they come up, that should be all that matters. Not worrying over how "balanced" it is.
          Suddenly I'm less apprehensive about presenting any potential Changeling ST with my idea for a custom merit to produce ink from his claws and fingers...and have a desire to purchase Changeling: The Dreaming 20th anniversary edition.

          Comment


          • These creation and customization rules are unbelievably insufficient. There's no way these can do what they need to, especially with such emphasis on this being a 'toolbox.'

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            • "
              Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
              Not worrying over how "balanced" it is.
              That's a relief, now I can finally play that kith I have been dreaming about that as special ability reduces the target number of all social rolls to 5.

              And has a custom regalia that functions like the Shield and sword regalias all rolled up in one....but as a bonus their power level for common is the equivalent of both regalias royals and then the Royals are even better.

              I can't wait to get into an endless argument with the ST in question about how he/she should totally allow for my ideas because "muh vision!".

              Hell, why do I even need a 60+ dollar book to tell me to just to use my imagination and that rules don't need to constrain me? I can just use an empty box and pretend I shoot 1 hit kill lasers! *Wiiiiiii*

              No, but seriously quoting anything from OWoD as an argument for "balance doesn't matter" is the equivalent of pointing out Chernobyl as an argument for "nuclear safety measure aren't needed". When it gave us some jewels like "enchanting voice" and "purebreed".

              Botton line is: Sure we can all rule 0 everything but that doesn't mean that we don't need actual rules for things, especially in crunchy systems like this one. You need rules to establish an objective baseline so the vision and egos in a table have an impartial mediator of sorts. A good table with everyone in synch doesn't need that but not all tables are that most are 3 people in synch 1 who is good but isn't in synch with the rest and 1 shithead. Rules serve to limit the latter 2.

              EDIT: And I am gonna add another problem with that theory of " When it comes to the custom stuff, as long as the players and ST are fine with it" as a DM, how do I know if I am a fine with something? If I don't have a good guide on how it should function? Your equation requires the agreement of both the DM and player as an excuse for "balance doesn't matter" but as a DM, and one who cares about balance, then how do you get "my agreement"?

              If balance isn't needed because DM and player approval are more important but DM needs balance to approve something then you are bitting you are running in circles.
              Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 12-07-2017, 01:20 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by E11even-E11even View Post
                These creation and customization rules are unbelievably insufficient. There's no way these can do what they need to, especially with such emphasis on this being a 'toolbox.'
                Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post

                That's a relief, now I can finally play that kith I have been dreaming about that as special ability reduces the target number of all social rolls to 5.

                And has a custom regalia that functions like the Shield and sword regalias all rolled up in one....but as a bonus their power level for common is the equivalent of both regalias royals and then the Royals are even better.

                I can't wait to get into an endless argument with the ST in question about how he/she should totally allow for my ideas because "muh vision!".

                Hell, why do I even need a 60+ dollar book to tell me to just to use my imagination and that rules don't need to constrain me? I can just use an empty box and pretend I shoot 1 hit kill lasers! *Wiiiiiii*

                No, but seriously quoting anything from OWoD as an argument for "balance doesn't matter" is the equivalent of pointing out Chernobyl as an argument for "nuclear safety measure aren't needed". When it gave us some jewels like "enchanting voice" and "purebreed".

                Botton line is: Sure we can all rule 0 everything but that doesn't mean that we don't need actual rules for things, especially in crunchy systems like this one. You need rules to establish an objective baseline so the vision and egos in a table have an impartial mediator of sorts. A good table with everyone in synch doesn't need that but not all tables are that most are 3 people in synch 1 who is good but isn't in synch with the rest and 1 shithead. Rules serve to limit the latter 2.

                EDIT: And I am gonna add another problem with that theory of " When it comes to the custom stuff, as long as the players and ST are fine with it" as a DM, how do I know if I am a fine with something? If I don't have a good guide on how it should function? Your equation requires the agreement of both the DM and player as an excuse for "balance doesn't matter" but as a DM, and one who cares about balance, then how do you get "my agreement"?

                If balance isn't needed because DM and player approval are more important but DM needs balance to approve something then you are bitting you are running in circles.
                I get you guys are frustrated with the current guidelines. As I've noted, I'd have preferred something more robust. However, there's no reason to be using that kind of attitude to people who are fine with them.

                As I have noted much earlier, people have been making custom content for the games without any kind of guidelines for it. People were making custom content for the game back when David Hill was producing Changeling: The Lost, and any guidelines included there were far less decisive than what the current version has granted us. There is a thread in this very forum that is 39 pages long of people posting and discussing various kiths they have created for others to see for David Hill's version, and already there's a thread being made of Kiths for the current version of the game. There is even a thread for custom contracts. The guidelines we have gotten may not be idiot-proof, but they are far and away better than having nothing and are still useful.

                If you don't feel you can create something with the current guides, I'm sorry they don't inspire you. Talk with someone about them, work with them, or even look to the forums for something someone else has worked on. Remember that we have supplements coming out in the future that will likely address any fallacies that you find, much in the same way that "Flowers of Hell" added a plethora of options for Embeds, Exploits and Gadget creation for Demon: The Descent. However, please do not call them "unbelievable insufficient" when people have been working with much less for far longer than this campaign has been out.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Taidragon View Post



                  I get you guys are frustrated with the current guidelines. As I've noted, I'd have preferred something more robust. However, there's no reason to be using that kind of attitude to people who are fine with them.

                  As I have noted much earlier, people have been making custom content for the games without any kind of guidelines for it. People were making custom content for the game back when David Hill was producing Changeling: The Lost, and any guidelines included there were far less decisive than what the current version has granted us. There is a thread in this very forum that is 39 pages long of people posting and discussing various kiths they have created for others to see for David Hill's version, and already there's a thread being made of Kiths for the current version of the game. There is even a thread for custom contracts. The guidelines we have gotten may not be idiot-proof, but they are far and away better than having nothing and are still useful.

                  If you don't feel you can create something with the current guides, I'm sorry they don't inspire you. Talk with someone about them, work with them, or even look to the forums for something someone else has worked on. Remember that we have supplements coming out in the future that will likely address any fallacies that you find, much in the same way that "Flowers of Hell" added a plethora of options for Embeds, Exploits and Gadget creation for Demon: The Descent. However, please do not call them "unbelievable insufficient" when people have been working with much less for far longer than this campaign has been out.
                  I'm not using this attitude towards anyone. This is how I feel about the product. The entire point of this is to discuss how we feel about the game, and that's what we're doing.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                    "

                    That's a relief, now I can finally play that kith I have been dreaming about that as special ability reduces the target number of all social rolls to 5.

                    And has a custom regalia that functions like the Shield and sword regalias all rolled up in one....but as a bonus their power level for common is the equivalent of both regalias royals and then the Royals are even better.
                    Well yeah.

                    If that's the kind of game that you want to play/run, then do it.

                    I can't wait to get into an endless argument with the ST in question about how he/she should totally allow for my ideas because "muh vision!".
                    And that is completely different issue then the viability of custom rules.

                    Frankly, if you're picking fights with your STs or if the relationship between players and STs is that antagonistic, your table has problems. The ST and the players are supposed to be working together on this, not against each other.

                    Hell, why do I even need a 60+ dollar book to tell me to just to use my imagination and that rules don't need to constrain me? I can just use an empty box and pretend I shoot 1 hit kill lasers! *Wiiiiiii*
                    Also, your ridiculously over-the-top snark-asm is prompting me to not even bother to take your opinion seriously.

                    No, but seriously quoting anything from OWoD as an argument for "balance doesn't matter" is the equivalent of pointing out Chernobyl as an argument for "nuclear safety measure aren't needed". When it gave us some jewels like "enchanting voice" and "purebreed".
                    Then you missed the point of my quote entirely.

                    EDIT: And I am gonna add another problem with that theory of " When it comes to the custom stuff, as long as the players and ST are fine with it" as a DM, how do I know if I am a fine with something? If I don't have a good guide on how it should function?
                    You figure it out during play. If the way how the dice are coming down seems off, you adjust. Don't see what's the problem.

                    And if you run with players or STs that get really stingy or pissed off from adjusting modifiers up and down...I really don't know what to tell you. Aside from being confused on running players that seem to have a vehement hatred for Golden Rule.

                    Like, unhealthily so.

                    ------------------------------------------------------
                    Really, this doesn't seem hard to me.

                    Changeling the Lost, and the other Chronicles of Darkness games for that matter, aren't competitive games or part of organized play. It doesn't have anything like Pathfinder Society or Shadowrun Missions. There's no official space where you are required to run the rules as RAW. So no. I don't see why one needs to obsess so much over balance. Adjust if your players aren't happy with a certain aspect of your custom, and keep going.

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                    • Also, something I've found frustrating in all this, is that there's this weird "never good enough" attitude around homebrew guidelines.

                      If you're going to homebrew, you have to eventually get used to taking off the training wheels. Homebrewing custom content is a skill that grows and develops with practice. No matter how much page space CtL 2e puts into it, and supplements put into it, and so on, if you're going to make your own stuff, you've got to eventually do it enough that you start to get a feel for what's right for you and your group.

                      No set of homebrew guidelines, and series of examples, and so on, is ever going to do that for you. At some point you just have to start homebrewing, accept that you'll make some mistakes, and learn and etc.

                      The point of, "don't worry about balance," is not, "make whatever gonzo craziness you can to exploit the system," but to not get stressed over things like, "is this subset of a Skill to get exceptional success on 3 instead of 5 successes just the right amount of broadness." Or to allow yourself to break a "rule" for something when it just makes sense. Like if I'm making a Weaponmaster Kith, it's not going to break the game if the 3 success for exceptional bonus gets linked to a preferred weapon selected at creation instead of a single Skill. Most of the time it's effectively one Skill anyway, but it means a Weaponmaster of archery can be a good archer with Athletics, Firearms, or Survival as bows straddle a few Skills like that. Yes it's "breaking the rule," but it's why they're guidelines not hard rules. So you can make that kind of judgement call for something that's fun to play.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Taidragon View Post
                        I get you guys are frustrated with the current guidelines. As I've noted, I'd have preferred something more robust. However, there's no reason to be using that kind of attitude to people who are fine with them.
                        You know what? You are right, that came out very harshly and I apologize. It just incredibly frustrating to get my issues dismissed as "well don't worry about balance". When you do worry about it, is like saying "don't worry about your broken leg" or "don't worry about sexism and/or any other kind of ism" when you do worry about that stuff.

                        But here is the main thing, my complaint is not about homebrewing something very "out of the game" like making up my own auspice or making up my own clan. Things that, yeah it goes beyond the core premise of the game.

                        But instead is about having to homebrewing stuff that are part of the core premise of the game (tokens and Seeming benefits).

                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        No set of homebrew guidelines, and series of examples, and so on, is ever going to do that for you..
                        You know what would have been enough? Each contract having 6 seeming benefits and a guide to make tokens (put them in the companion) ala Lore of the forsaken with fetish that has a dot by dot of what effect it can have. It's not like I want to homebrew stuff, I actively hate to having to homebrew powers and I am sick of OPP forcing me to do so by not updating stuff and just shoving more and more "location/time" write up.

                        If OPP had released all the gifts missing updates in Forsaken. And put the courts (directional, dawn/dusk, day and night) and update from 1st. Then that's all I need. I would use that and tell anyone with a homebrew coming to my table "No, pick from the game and that's it".

                        I am not complaining that the game doesn't let me do something so out of place that "Sure no homebrewing guidelines would be enough" but stuff that are A) Very basic and B) We don't get ANY guidelines whatsoever.

                        Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                        So no. I don't see why one needs to obsess so much overbalance. Adjust if your players aren't happy with a certain aspect of your custom, and keep going.
                        Because as the problem comes from the player being happy and the Dm not. Or vice-versa.

                        Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                        Then you missed the point of my quote entirely.
                        I don't miss your point, just pointing out that quotes come from a game whose system is notoriously easy to break and which even people who like the game admit the system is godawful. Again is like hearing from the soviet union on the unimportance of safety measure on the nuclear plant during Chernobyl.

                        So there is little to do in the end more than A) Voting with my wallet and not supporting system design laziness. B) Telling people I know to not buy OPP products for the same reason. C) Keep bringing up this issue until OPP maybe, hopefully, change their design philosophy.
                        Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 12-07-2017, 07:38 AM.

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                        • It is annoying that if you take a contract that isn't from your seeming's regalia you have a 80% chance of needing to homebrew.


                          Genius templates (for Demon: the Descent)

                          Rakshasa: the Kingdom (Featuring the Extinction Chronicle) [WIP]

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                          • I'm not a big homebrewer, but I've thrown my hat in now and then with 1st edition; I created a decent contract and a new kith. The contract was tough but not a huge headache. I get that people want clear, robust and detailed rules for making their own stuff, and I'll grant you that the rules given could definitely be better, but as written, I think they're good enough to at least provide a starting point. Though I agree that they should definitely have done a better job of showing how the rules apply to already existing contracts-court related stuff in particular.

                            That being said, I can see where people are coming from with their dissatisfaction. I was excited by the Underhill version to make my own courts, and the rules we have now are definitely not as clear and efficient as those ones. That's only to be expected considering court creation is no longer a vital part of the game, but the point still stands; people had their hopes up-not unreasonably-that they'd be able to do something to a degree that it turns out they won't be able to do. But this is all just my two cents on the matter.

                            What I guess I'm really trying to say is that if your're not happy about the rules given, that's fine and reasonable and I'm sorry that you feel the way you do. If you're happy about what we have, then great, I am too.

                            (And they really should have put some actual rules for designing Tokens. I feel as though they intended Tokens to be far-reaching and very flexible, but leaving GMs totally afloat isn't the best rout to take.)

                            Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
                            It is annoying that if you take a contract that isn't from your seeming's regalia you have a 80% chance of needing to homebrew.
                            I assumed the seeming bonus to contracts was just meant for those specific seemings. Maybe I missed something, but I didn't think you were strictly meant to design bonuses for them-they were just incentives for those seemings.
                            Last edited by Lady Gray; 12-07-2017, 07:44 AM.

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                            • Now that I've had a chance to read it, I can actually comment on some content-things -
                              I think the biggest thing the homebrew chapter is missing is worked examples, using one of the published contract/court/kith sets as a way to mechanically build using these guidelines. While they're not core-books, both Equinox Road in 1E (Courts and Contracts) and Demon's Storyteller's Guide (Interlocks) had some very nice worked examples which actually explained the reasoning behind the design choices made for those examples. Particular shout out to the Reflections contract series, it's a player favourite.

                              Ultimately the big problem is that it's there's the broad guidelines and the end results (e.g. the published contract/court/kith sets) and there's no guidance on how to get from the start point (general guidelines) to the endpoint (functional game mechanic) and why you'd make certain decisions. And I say this as someone who's happy homebrewing anything, ever.

                              Comment


                              • nevermind.
                                Last edited by MCN; 12-07-2017, 09:38 AM.

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