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  • Kith, Seemings and enchanted types...?

    First the mea culpa: I wear the Hat of Shame, having come too late to an interest in Changeling 2e to join the kickstarter. That means I only have now-ancient playtest documents to go off of for the descriptions of this and that. If there is a compiled playtest out there later than February 2016, please link me. Otherwise I'll wait for the book.

    There are questions. These may be ignorant questions. Please correct me.

    * Changelings when abducted get a Fetch replacement, a Kith, a Seeming, and a smattering of Contracts. They form Bastions and Dreamwalk, naturally. They use Clarity, which is mechanically more similar to Primal Urge than to, say, Humanity. They use Wyrd and have a Glamour pool, as well as means to gather it. They can open doors to the Hedge freely. They can scour their Mask, revealing their Mien. They can seal pledges and make oaths and bargains. The key elements to the Changeling's story are Capture->Change->Escape->Life.

    * Loyalists are Changelings that did not escape, and for some reason were released by their Keeper into the world. They lack a Seeming but are otherwise identical. Their elements are Capture->Change->Release->Life (which is complicated by their lack of Seeming). They're also easier for Hunstmen to find.

    * Fae-touched are humans who encountered the Hedge, usually based on a connection to a Changeling, and have been contaminated by it and Glamour. They have a Seeming, start with 2 dots of Contracts, Wyrd 0 (may not increase), have a Glamour pool but difficulty in refilling it. They can seal statements by Changelings. They do not have a Mien and generally look fully human unless a specific Merit is taken (representing extended exposure to the Hedge and concurrent changes). Their story is Encounter->Escape->Life.

    So, questions:

    1. Am I missing any sub-types?

    2. If fae-touched do not Dreamwalk, then they do not form a Bastion, correct?

    3. The Kith represents both the purposeful changes a True Fae wrought, AND the Changeling's extended stay in Faerie as their Keeper's implement/object. Fae-touched may end up physically changed (per a Merit), but did not stay long enough to have it supernaturally affect them to the extent of forming a Kith. In other words even if a True Fae was involved they didn't put them to a purpose before the fae-touched character escaped the Hedge (and got their Seeming). --Is this summary correct? Is there a Merit that provides a Kith to a fae-touched?

    4. What happens if a fae-touched is led out of the Hedge instead of escaping? Do they start with no Seeming as well?

    5. The critical difference between Changelings and fae-touched appears to be the duration/purpose of the former's stay in Faerie, and the addition of the Fetch. What about people who were abducted but not replaced? Say because the circumstances of their passage into the Hedge would have led them otherwise to die? Do the True Fae bother to make a Fetch just to have it get destroyed? (Burning building, maybe?) What if one could reasonably assume the person died in conflict? (As during medieval periods, and warzones?) Is there a Merit for "missing Fetch?"

    Thank you for your patience.

    --Khanwulf

  • #2
    Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
    First the mea culpa: I wear the Hat of Shame, having come too late to an interest in Changeling 2e to join the kickstarter. That means I only have now-ancient playtest documents to go off of for the descriptions of this and that.
    The version of Changeling 2e previewed in the Kickstarter and which will be published is very different from the version previewed under David Hill, so fair warning.

    Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
    Changelings when abducted get a Fetch replacement, a Kith, a Seeming, and a smattering of Contracts. They use Clarity, which is mechanically more similar to Primal Urge than to, say, Humanity.
    I think you meant Harmony here rather than Primal Urge, which is werewolves' Wyrd equivalent? Clarity is different still in the new edition, and now resembles Health more than any other trait. Most changelings are replaced by fetches, but not all. There is no Merit associated with not having been replaced.

    Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
    They lack a Seeming but are otherwise identical.
    Seeming is no longer equated with the motivation or means of the changeling's escape. Loyalists have Seemings; being a loyalist is not a metaphysical condition.

    Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
    They have a Seeming, start with 2 dots of Contracts, Wyrd 0 (may not increase), have a Glamour pool but difficulty in refilling it. They can seal statements by Changelings. They do not have a Mien and generally look fully human unless a specific Merit is taken (representing extended exposure to the Hedge and concurrent changes).
    Fae-Touched don't have Seemings, Kiths or a fae mien, harvest Glamour like changelings typically do, and can seal humans but not the fae.

    Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
    If fae-touched do not Dreamwalk, then they do not form a Bastion, correct?
    Everyone who dreams forms a Bastion.

    Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
    The Kith represents both the purposeful changes a True Fae wrought, AND the Changeling's extended stay in Faerie as their Keeper's implement/object. Fae-touched may end up physically changed (per a Merit), but did not stay long enough to have it supernaturally affect them to the extent of forming a Kith. In other words even if a True Fae was involved they didn't put them to a purpose before the fae-touched character escaped the Hedge (and got their Seeming). --Is this summary correct? Is there a Merit that provides a Kith to a fae-touched?
    There are no special Merits representing a physical transformation of the Fae-Touched. The line between becoming Fae-Touched and becoming changeling (aside from the promise that leads the Fae-Touched into the Hedge) lies primarily at the borders of Arcadia: a Fae-Touched in the making who wanders deep enough into the Hedge to reach Faerie is likely to be captured and made Lost. Fae-Touched are changed by the Hedge, not by Faerie itself.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
      * Loyalists are Changelings that did not escape, and for some reason were released by their Keeper into the world. They lack a Seeming but are otherwise identical. Their elements are Capture->Change->Release->Life (which is complicated by their lack of Seeming). They're also easier for Hunstmen to find.
      "Loyalist" is now an umbrella category containing privateers, bridge-burners, and the "true loyalists" to which the term exclusively referred in 1e, as well as serving as a general term of reference for changelings who don't join a court or freehold.

      The general unifying feature here is "changelings who don't place their allegiances with the Lost of the courts and are thus accorded less trust in general by their fellows." Bridge-burners are included on the list, to their chagrin, because they are so hardline Against The Fae that they're willing to eschew most courts and pledgecraft, scour dreams from existence, and destroy any sense of wonder or inspiration in the mortal population in the name of denying the Strangers a foothold.


      Resident Sanguinary Analyst
      Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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      • #4
        It's clear that relying on ancient versions is going to get me in a peck of trouble. (I'll still need another peck for a kenning... or, just some Clarity! *bum*ching!*)

        Ok, I'm going to cherry-pick followup questions...

        If Seeming is no longer associated with escape, then what does it represent? (And if it's not, I can understand why it's dropped for fae-touched.)

        If everyone who dreams forms a Bastion, are they then equally able to take Bastion-related Merits? Most of those in the early documents were related to the physical linkage between the Hedge and Bastions, IIRC.

        Loyalists--ok. So are there any mechanical side-effects to being released by the Fae, versus escaping? (Rare, sure, but then again the Keepers also trade changelings when it suits their inscrutable logic....)

        Thanks folks,
        --Khanwulf

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post

          If Seeming is no longer associated with escape, then what does it represent? (And if it's not, I can understand why it's dropped for fae-touched.)

          --Khanwulf
          From the short description in the lexicon of the 2e manuscript :

          ''seeming: A changeling's physical aspect, which reflects the role he played in Faerie and the talents he used to escape.''

          The character creation section says :
          ''A character's seeming forms from what happened to her in Arcadia, how she escaped it, or how she approaches the world now.''

          So in the end i'd say that seeming represent how the changeling view itself in broadstrokes. The key to how you view yourself can be what happened to you, how you escaped or how you readjust to reality.
          Hope that helps.


          Currently running: VtR - The most serene requiem of Venice
          Currently playing: Being a dad for a 1year old daughter and a newborn son.
          Currently planning: Scion 2nd edition

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
            If Seeming is no longer associated with escape, then what does it represent? (And if it's not, I can understand why it's dropped for fae-touched.)
            Same thing it represented in first edition.

            Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
            If everyone who dreams forms a Bastion, are they then equally able to take Bastion-related Merits? Most of those in the early documents were related to the physical linkage between the Hedge and Bastions, IIRC.
            Unless I missed one somewhere, there's exactly one Bastion-related Merit, for changelings. It increases your Bastion's Fortification. (I don't see any in my old David Hill playtest documents either; were they from a later revision or a document I missed?)

            Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
            Loyalists--ok. So are there any mechanical side-effects to being released by the Fae, versus escaping? (Rare, sure, but then again the Keepers also trade changelings when it suits their inscrutable logic....)
            Well, you probably don't have a Court or its associated Mantle or Contracts, and it's the CofD so never say never just in general, but aside from that, none are presented that I noticed.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
              Unless I missed one somewhere, there's exactly one Bastion-related Merit, for changelings. It increases your Bastion's Fortification. (I don't see any in my old David Hill playtest documents either; were they from a later revision or a document I missed?)
              It was there under the same name with the same basic effect.


              Resident Sanguinary Analyst
              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
                Changelings when abducted get a Fetch replacement, a Kith, a Seeming, and a smattering of Contracts.
                They Often get replaced and it is standard but it's pretty variable.

                Changelings always get a Seeming but the text seems to indicate that sometimes they don't get a Kith (though they do most of the time).

                They form Bastions and Dreamwalk, naturally.
                All dreamers form Bastions. A Bastion is simply the container that contains a dreamers dream (like sleeping dream, not soul dream like the Oneiros). Presumably, even Vamps get Bastions especially when their in Torpor. If someone is dreaming, that dream is inside a Bastion.

                As for Dreamwalking, yes. All changelings are natural Lucid Dreamers and more than that, they can find the exit to their own Bastion (called the Gate of Ivory) and enter the "hub" of Bastions in the Hedge called the Dreaming Roads where they can enter the dreams of others. (as a quick note, they can enter others dreams physically if they find the Dreaming Roads physically in the hedge through the Gate of Horn)

                They use Clarity, which is mechanically more similar to Primal Urge than to, say, Humanity.
                Kinda. Clarity is mechanically more similar to Health now rather than Primal Urge, Humanity, or Harmony. Think Call of Cthulu and you'd be close.

                They use Wyrd and have a Glamour pool, as well as means to gather it. They can open doors to the Hedge freely.
                Correct. Quote note though, Hedge gates, once created, stay .... i'm going to say "dormantly open" once created. Kind of hard to explain but essentally once a gate is created, going through it is MUCH easier after it's already been created (not to say its hard for changelings in the first place).

                Loyalists are Changelings that did not escape, and for some reason were released by their Keeper into the world. They lack a Seeming but are otherwise identical. Their elements are Capture->Change->Release->Life (which is complicated by their lack of Seeming). They're also easier for Hunstmen to find.
                uhh, somewhat.

                So Loyalists are now more of a category (and an insult depending) than one specific kind of person. Loyalists as a category contains antagonists such as:
                - Bridge Burners who are radicals who decide to approach dealing with the fate of the True Fae using Salt-the-Earth tactics. This can contain anything from ripping dreams from children (read as as almost lobotomizing), killing high target changelings, and other things that do more harm than good.
                - Privateers who are changelings that sell out/capture other changelings for their own profit.
                - True Loyalists who directly work for or still in the employ of their Keepers with tasks on collecting more humans and recapturing the Lost.

                So really someone is categorized as a Loyalist if they are a danger/enemy to Lost society and is also a changeling. So depending on the Freehold, even Courtless changelings could be labeled as loyalists simply by being the easy target that may bring their enemies closer to the freehold or on the chance that they may be a Privateer in disguise (so mostly fear).

                As for how one becomes any of those, there can be any number of reasons.

                Fae-touched are humans who encountered the Hedge, usually based on a connection to a Changeling, and have been contaminated by it and Glamour. They have a Seeming, start with 2 dots of Contracts, Wyrd 0 (may not increase), have a Glamour pool but difficulty in refilling it. They can seal statements by Changelings. They do not have a Mien and generally look fully human unless a specific Merit is taken (representing extended exposure to the Hedge and concurrent changes). Their story is Encounter->Escape->Life.
                Fae-Touched are humans who encountered the Hedge because of a connection to a changeling (specifically a Promise made before the Changeling was taken). The strong Promise plus the Magic of Wyrd through the Hedge to strengthened the Promise is what creates a Fae-Touched (vs any other human that just happens on the Hedge).

                They do not have a Seeming or a Kith or a Mein.
                They Use Integrity instead of Clarity.
                They get a Favored Regalia and 2 starting Contracts in it (Contracts no longer have dots).
                They can seal statements made by humans but they cannot seal words from Changelings or other fae creatures. They cannot contest a sealing on their words.
                They can only enter into Oaths with Changelings.

                Additional things to consider: They are addicted to the Hedge (which can worsen)

                Everything else is correct.

                So, questions:

                1. Am I missing any sub-types?

                2. If fae-touched do not Dreamwalk, then they do not form a Bastion, correct?

                3. The Kith represents both the purposeful changes a True Fae wrought, AND the Changeling's extended stay in Faerie as their Keeper's implement/object. Fae-touched may end up physically changed (per a Merit), but did not stay long enough to have it supernaturally affect them to the extent of forming a Kith. In other words even if a True Fae was involved they didn't put them to a purpose before the fae-touched character escaped the Hedge (and got their Seeming). --Is this summary correct? Is there a Merit that provides a Kith to a fae-touched?

                4. What happens if a fae-touched is led out of the Hedge instead of escaping? Do they start with no Seeming as well?

                5. The critical difference between Changelings and fae-touched appears to be the duration/purpose of the former's stay in Faerie, and the addition of the Fetch. What about people who were abducted but not replaced? Say because the circumstances of their passage into the Hedge would have led them otherwise to die? Do the True Fae bother to make a Fetch just to have it get destroyed? (Burning building, maybe?) What if one could reasonably assume the person died in conflict? (As during medieval periods, and warzones?) Is there a Merit for "missing Fetch?"

                Thank you for your patience.

                --Khanwulf
                Answers:

                1. Not sure what you mean by subtypes.
                There are Entitlements but we didn't get much on them from the Core so at the moment they're likely mostly unchanged.

                Oh! I know! you're missing Hedge-Denizens and Goblin Queens

                In brief, accruing an amount of Goblin Debt without working it off (past a threshold) turns a character into a Hedge Denizen (read: a Hobgoblin). Subject to most of the same rules.
                Accruing more goblin debt turns a Hobgoblin into a Goblin Queen (a very powerful goblin that an amount of lower hobs automatically start worshiping) that can only be reversed by working off all the debt or putting a human in place of you.

                2. In-correct. As stated above, all dreamers have Bastions. A Bastion is simply the container that houses the Dream. They can't take dream weaving actions to effect the dreamscape like Changelings can. However, they could be guided out of their dream if a changeling brings the fae-touched with them through the Gate of Ivory and they could use the Dreamsteps contract to enter someone else's dream same a changeling would (but wouldn't be able to make dreamweaving actions).

                3. I don't think they have a changed merit to give them a Kith but I may have to look again. But the rest of what you said has changed.
                The Kith is still the purpose/change that the Keeper/Arcadia turned you into.
                I think it needs to be clarified that the Seeming is no longer only how a changeling escaped. It's now a kind of classification of groups of Changelings (a classification that is supernaturally bound thus the Blessings and Drawbacks).

                Essentially, each of the 6 Seemings is two-fold:
                a. an archetype of a fairy tale creature (as a note, it doesn't have to be literal like Kith is)
                b. (on a meta level) an expression of trauma/trauma coping mechanism.

                Because of this, there is many reasons a changeling could be a certain seeming:
                a. How the keeper made you (you were made into a wolf and treated like an animal and so you became the Beast you were treated as)
                b. How you escaped your Keeper (there was one chance to escape through the garden of your Keeper, and so you became the Beast with its own instincts to escape)
                c. How you cope on this side of the Hedge (your Keeper wanted nothing more from you than a marble statue to keep quiet and be appriciated. Now that you're back, never again will you do anything for anyone else's Interest. You are a Beast but more importantly, you are your own.)

                A Changeling can have a Seeming because of all, one, or any combination of the above.

                (As a side note on Miens: the mien is shaped by so much more now: Obviously the Kith has the biggest (arguably) effect on your Mien's appearance but now so does:
                - your seeming (maybe your Snowskin's angles are more predatory or maybe the Artist nails are filed to sharp points)
                - your court (maybe leaves are left in your wake or maybe crickets chirp in nervous anticipation just before outa earshot)
                - Each Contract you enter into
                - your entitlement

                4. Fae-touch do not have seemings ever. However, it's not the escape that instills a human with Wyrd, it's entering the Hedge with a lingering Promise with a now-changeling. As soon as the pre-fae-touched enters the Hedge, they are now one of the Avowed.

                5. People who were abducted but not replaced are still changelings. The Fetch has nothing to do with the process (really its up to the whims of the individual Fae). There is no merit for a missing fetch. It just means that that individual has no fetch.



                EDIT: crap, it looks like other people answered. Sorry, I was writing this in-between a busy day at work so it took me a really long time to finish writing a response.

                Edit 2: for your other Questions (i love this!)

                Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
                If Seeming is no longer associated with escape, then what does it represent? (And if it's not, I can understand why it's dropped for fae-touched.)
                See mine or Corbo's response. It's really fascinating really.

                If everyone who dreams forms a Bastion, are they then equally able to take Bastion-related Merits? Most of those in the early documents were related to the physical linkage between the Hedge and Bastions, IIRC.
                There's only one as someone above stated.

                So to be a little more verbose on what a Bastion is now: A Bastion is simply the "housing" that contains any one Dreamer's dreams for that night and that night only (as in it goes poof when the dreamer wakes up and a new one is created when they start dreaming again).

                All Bastions exist in a specific place in the Hedge called the Dreaming Roads (there for you could explore dreams in a dream form from the Gate of Ivory or physical form from the Gate of Horn).

                Each Bastion has a fortification rating that makes it harder or easier to infiltrate (so Bastions are good temp places to hide from the Fae).

                Loyalists--ok. So are there any mechanical side-effects to being released by the Fae, versus escaping? (Rare, sure, but then again the Keepers also trade changelings when it suits their inscrutable logic....)

                Thanks folks,
                --Khanwulf
                As said before, not really but there can be depending on the very specific situation. But there's nothing shared.

                Also, there'd be no reason for a Keeper to send their Huntsman after their own True Loyalist unless its part of a ploy.
                Last edited by xiongrey; 12-20-2017, 05:31 PM.



                Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

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                • #9
                  Small screen time, so briefly: thank you all for the deep and incisive responses. Most appreciated. I've avoided Changeling since WoD days and was surprised at how interesting 2nd ed. looked.

                  Are the Avowed another name for fae-touched?

                  If someone wanders into the hedge without a Promise extant to a Changeling, what happens? Bad trip time? Snagged by a Fae?

                  Mien is a whole other issue. Changelings are complex, damaged people and, like ogres, have layers. Some are, in fact, ogres.... In some respects I'm picturing the complexity as an internalized version of mage's external "make reality whatever".

                  So hopefully your responses will help others grip it, too.

                  Hobgoblins and loyalists sound like secondary antagonists. Worthy of following up on later when the book comes out.

                  Back to questions:
                  I managed to get confused. Bastions are an important concept I poorly understood but my original thought was on Hollows. Are those still a thing? Who has them?

                  --Khanwulf

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
                    Are the Avowed another name for fae-touched?
                    Yup.

                    If someone wanders into the hedge without a Promise extant to a Changeling, what happens? Bad trip time? Snagged by a Fae?
                    Nothing more special than anyone else stuck in a psychoactive maze without the means to make or find an exit. Fae-Touched run on more particular drives.

                    Back to questions:
                    I managed to get confused. Bastions are an important concept I poorly understood but my original thought was on Hollows. Are those still a thing? Who has them?

                    --Khanwulf
                    Hollows are largely as they were before — secured locations in the Hedge held by changelings, hobgoblins, and stranger things. Comparatively, they're like a demon's Bolthole but with more real estate and some creature comforts at the cost of there being more than one way in.


                    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                    • #11
                      Yeah, Hollows aren't related to the Dreaming Roads except in that both can be found from the Hedge, but they're still there and they're still cool. Fae-Touched can share Hollows with changelings and contribute Merit dots to them normally, but a Hollow can't be maintained by Fae-Touched alone.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
                        Yeah, Hollows aren't related to the Dreaming Roads except in that both can be found from the Hedge, but they're still there and they're still cool. Fae-Touched can share Hollows with changelings and contribute Merit dots to them normally, but a Hollow can't be maintained by Fae-Touched alone.
                        Yeah, they are cool! And thanks, that clarification is very helpful.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post

                          If someone wanders into the hedge without a Promise extant to a Changeling, what happens? Bad trip time? Snagged by a Fae?
                          Thought I'd add something here that is mostly speculation on my part. But throughout the Hobgoblin section of 2nd ed, I got the impression that nearly all if not all hobgoblins were either human themselves at one point or possibly an ancestor was human.

                          This is far from outright stated and so is my own speculation. But from the descriptions of some of the hobgoblins (like the Briar Wolves having human like eyes and their paws being almost hand like) to the description that things left in the Hedge for too long mutate into fae-like goblin stuff themselves.

                          idk, I got the impression (or at least my own head cannon) that all hobgoblins were either humans themselves, or are the decendants of humans who got lost and became Hedge Denizens.


                          Just thought that was worthy to share.



                          Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by xiongrey View Post
                            idk, I got the impression (or at least my own head cannon) that all hobgoblins were either humans themselves, or are the decendants of humans who got lost and became Hedge Denizens.


                            Just thought that was worthy to share.
                            Thanks Xiongrey, that's a worthy observation. My impression is that Faerie and the Hedge are populated by humans from across time, and many of the True Fae's favorite objects were people at some point. It drives home the theme of objectification in explicit ways.

                            Question: to what extent are a fetch's stats and memories a mirror of the original character? They're really good at faking it, sure, but what do they actually know?

                            --Khanwulf

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post



                              Question: to what extent are a fetch's stats and memories a mirror of the original character? They're really good at faking it, sure, but what do they actually know?

                              --Khanwulf
                              They begin "life" with all the same memories and stats as their changeling doppelganger. However, their lives may take drastically different roads and thus their stats may not reflect that of their changeling counterpart when they return from the Hedge. Also, they may start having weird "memories" that perhaps belonged to their changeling's life during their durance when the Lost in particular returns Ironside.

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