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  • Dreamweaving 2e

    I've gone through the rules now that we have the Dreamweaving rules and related conditions.

    Dreamweaving is very powerful, but most of that power is invested in the dream shifts conditions and the Too Solid Flesh condition.

    With shift conditions you can increase Mental/Social Attributes, add Mental and Supernatural Merits, Subluminally program the Dreamer, cause the Too Solid Condition (the only uses for which appear to be mind blowing dream sex, killing someone, or injurying someone), apply behavioral conditions to them.

    Down side appears to be for a dreamer to gain a dream shift condition normally they can't be a lucid dreamer, including Changelings, although the Comatose condition gets around this which actually means the Comatose Condition can be useful in the right situations.

    This means a Changeling can really screw with mortals via dreams.

    A Changeling can grant a mortal a merit based Supernatural Template like Pyshic Vampire, Lucky, The Plain, Lost Boys, Dreamer, Infected (I see Bridge Burners using Infected to attack the Hedge), Wolfblooded (weird I know), Sleepwalker, as well as normal Supernatural Merits like Telepath and so on.

    A Changeling might be able enter a Vampires dreams, especially with dreamsteps and really have some fun, especially if the Vampire has a stake through its heart and can't be woken up.

    I could see a worried Changeling staking a Vampire and hiding in the Vampires torpid nightmares for as long as the Changeling wants.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
    A Changeling might be able enter a Vampires dreams, especially with dreamsteps and really have some fun, especially if the Vampire has a stake through its heart and can't be woken up.

    I could see a worried Changeling staking a Vampire and hiding in the Vampires torpid nightmares for as long as the Changeling wants.
    Man, I could really see that as a pretty great Vampire story hook. Something weird to an elder but the truth is weirder than the political chaos that it's causing in the Domain.



    Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
      A Changeling can grant a mortal a merit based Supernatural Template like Pyshic Vampire, Lucky, The Plain, Lost Boys, Dreamer, Infected (I see Bridge Burners using Infected to attack the Hedge), Wolfblooded (weird I know), Sleepwalker, as well as normal Supernatural Merits like Telepath and so on.
      Ah... that's a bit of a stretch, I'd say. You do need to have the prerequisites for these things, and you kind of need to have the story background. It makes absolutely zero sense for someone to get Lost Boy tech - you kind of need to have it implanted as a prerequisite. The Plain do rely on following a certain philosophy, and Infected means having, well, an actual supernatural infection.

      Being able to grant supernatural abilities is pretty cool, admittedly, but I don't think that the micro-templates are going to be free game, considering they've got considerations and requirements of their own.
      I could see a worried Changeling staking a Vampire and hiding in the Vampires torpid nightmares for as long as the Changeling wants.
      Going one full day without human or changeling contact is a clarity breaking point. Eating only goblin fruits/meats is another one. Vampire dreams tend to be pretty nasty, especially after a staking or other combat, and that's a good way to get some mental conditions that hit Clarity again. Living in the hedge is VERY easy way to fall Comatose.

      And watch out for the huntsmen - Surprise Entrance means that they'll show up wherever the changeling is, even if its within a vampire's dream. Unless you have the Obliged Condition with the vampire through a Bargain (which is going to be tricky if you just staked them), you're still easy to find.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by MCN View Post
        Ah... that's a bit of a stretch, I'd say. You do need to have the prerequisites for these things, and you kind of need to have the story background. It makes absolutely zero sense for someone to get Lost Boy tech - you kind of need to have it implanted as a prerequisite. The Plain do rely on following a certain philosophy, and Infected means having, well, an actual supernatural infection.

        Being able to grant supernatural abilities is pretty cool, admittedly, but I don't think that the micro-templates are going to be free game, considering they've got considerations and requirements of their own.
        Going one full day without human or changeling contact is a clarity breaking point. Eating only goblin fruits/meats is another one. Vampire dreams tend to be pretty nasty, especially after a staking or other combat, and that's a good way to get some mental conditions that hit Clarity again. Living in the hedge is VERY easy way to fall Comatose.

        And watch out for the huntsmen - Surprise Entrance means that they'll show up wherever the changeling is, even if its within a vampire's dream. Unless you have the Obliged Condition with the vampire through a Bargain (which is going to be tricky if you just staked them), you're still easy to find.
        Yeah I really hate Surprise Entrance, it defeats the purpose of having hunt, really ruins huntsmen.

        The only requirements for the merit templates is that you are mortal, no templates.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by xiongrey View Post

          Man, I could really see that as a pretty great Vampire story hook. Something weird to an elder but the truth is weirder than the political chaos that it's causing in the Domain.
          Yeah a Changeling is squatting in a Vampire Princes dreams.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post

            Yeah I really hate Surprise Entrance, it defeats the purpose of having hunt, really ruins huntsmen.
            Not quite. The huntsman shows up on the scene... but it still needs to FIND the changeling in the scene. So, that's where all the other powers and perception rolls come into play. A changeling and the huntsman could walk past each other and neither realize who the other is easily. Especially if the changeling has Obliged, which protects her from being spotted by a huntsman through a simple Clash of Wills.

            The only thing that Surprise Entrance does is that it serves as basically a compass to where the changeling is. The hunting parts start after the huntsman arrives on scene. I mean, having to roll tracking rolls and everything for an NPC is kinda just busywork that doesn't really add to the stories since its all behind the curtain. As an ST, I know that I just have the Huntsman randomly show up sometimes and start looking for the changeling. That's exactly what happens here, but codified as an ability.

            The only requirements for the merit templates is that you are mortal, no templates.
            Lost Boys literally require you to have physical implants in your body. While any mortal can have that happen, it makes absolutely no sense for a changeling to randomly be able to manifest physical technology like that from inside a dream. No dream ability can physically affect a person - its all affecting mental abilities.

            That's kind of a prerequisite that's story based rather than stat based, but its still rather an important requirement to keep in mind. You can't ignore the story aspects of that.
            Last edited by MCN; 12-21-2017, 03:59 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by MCN View Post
              Not quite. The huntsman shows up on the scene... but it still needs to FIND the changeling in the scene. So, that's where all the other powers and perception rolls come into play. A changeling and the huntsman could walk past each other and neither realize who the other is easily. Especially if the changeling has Obliged, which protects her from being spotted by a huntsman through a simple Clash of Wills.

              The only thing that Surprise Entrance does is that it serves as basically a compass to where the changeling is. The hunting parts start after the huntsman arrives on scene. I mean, having to roll tracking rolls and everything for an NPC is kinda just busywork that doesn't really add to the stories since its all behind the curtain. As an ST, I know that I just have the Huntsman randomly show up sometimes and start looking for the changeling. That's exactly what happens here, but codified as an ability.

              Lost Boys literally require you to have physical implants in your body. While any mortal can have that happen, it makes absolutely no sense for a changeling to randomly be able to manifest physical technology like that from inside a dream. No dream ability can physically affect a person - its all affecting mental abilities.

              That's kind of a prerequisite that's story based rather than stat based, but its still rather an important requirement to keep in mind. You can't ignore the story aspects of that.
              Yeah Psyhic Vampire, Dreamer, Lucky, Infected, and so on all make sense, but Lost Boys is tricky both because of the implants, but also because of drug they need.

              Still, I'd go with implants made of Glamour, bits of dreams that got pushed out from the dream into the Dreamers body. Or their bioimplants who growth is triggered by biofeed back in the dream.

              Still the really weird ones are giving someone say a • Token or • Hollow via Dreamweaving Dream Shift Conditions. Although now that I think of it, I could see how it could be done.

              What I really what to know is what happens when an Eidolon or Prop get separated from the dream they we're created in, or a True Far creates an Eidolon or Prop in the Hedge, can they leave the Hedge? Do living props become Hobgoblins and Eidolons become Hedge Ghosts or do thez simply remain what they are?

              Also did anyone notice that Not only is there no limit on how many times you can harvest a dream, you can now harvest YOUR OWN DREAMS.

              It's also possible to drain your important Eidolons of Glamour with the right contract and make them more powerful by using dream shift conditions to boost the Bastion Rating of a persons dreams.

              Oh and I forgot about the Sorceror merits for DE1 Companion.
              Last edited by Omegaphallic; 12-21-2017, 04:56 PM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
                Also did anyone notice that Not only is there no limit on how many times you can harvest a dream, you can now harvest YOUR OWN DREAMS.
                Nope. You explicitly can't harvest Glamour from fae creatures.

                Also, taking Glamour from other characters in dreams relies on Shift Conditions. You never take Shift Conditions from enacting a paradigm shift in your own dreams in normal circumstances, so even if important eidolons somehow don't count as fae despite having Wyrd scores and Glamour levels you wouldn't be able to get to that point in the first place.


                Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  Nope. You explicitly can't harvest Glamour from fae creatures.

                  Also, taking Glamour from other characters in dreams relies on Shift Conditions. You never take Shift Conditions from enacting a paradigm shift in your own dreams in normal circumstances, so even if important eidolons somehow don't count as fae despite having Wyrd scores and Glamour levels you wouldn't be able to get to that point in the first place.
                  Wrong, you can harvest the Dream itself with a paradigm shift by itself, the Shift condition is needed to drain the dreamers own glamour pool or willpower points.

                  And the only type of glamour harvesting that precludes fae is emotions, dreams, reaping, both fair game.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
                    Wrong, you can harvest the Dream itself with a paradigm shift by itself, the Shift condition is needed to drain the dreamers own glamour pool or willpower points.

                    And the only type of glamour harvesting that precludes fae is emotions, dreams, reaping, both fair game.
                    "[A] changeling cannot harvest Glamour from any fae creatures (including other changelings, Hedge denizens, or the True Fae)" is stated before any further specifications about type and the Glamour you get from a paradigm shift is harvested "from the dreamer's mind." Nothing about that combination of effects suggests an infinite loop is the intent of the mechanics.


                    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                    • #11
                      Very interesting conversation!

                      How would mage spheres interact with a dreamscape? Mage dreams?

                      --Khanwulf

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
                        Very interesting conversation!

                        How would mage spheres interact with a dreamscape? Mage dreams?

                        --Khanwulf
                        I don't know anything about "Mage Spheres" so you'll have to explain that before I know.

                        As far as Mage Dreams? There's two facets to that:
                        1. The Mage's Oneiros (and through that the Temenos and the Anima Mundi).
                        2. The Mage's sleeptime dreams.

                        These are explicitely treated differently (in a changeling sense).
                        The Mage's Oneiros is the space for... the "Soul Dream" space in that it's less the scenarios that play out when you're asleep and more the... "Dreamscape" that resides in a mages soul. I don't know how to explain it so I don't know if I fully get it.

                        For the latter, I think a Mage has dreams just like any other dreaming entity does. I wouldn't expect them to be anything more than any other Dreamer would be unless they cast a spell to allow them to see their (non-oneiros) dreams as anything other than a dreamer as normal.

                        As far as the Temenos and Anima Mundi, there was a sidebar that said that, on the Dreaming Roads, the space beyond and in-between individual Bastions lies even weirder portions of the Hedge that may not be the Hedge at all. It may have places that connect to the Temenos or Anima Mundi if you go far enough or you may find the Chaotic Dreamscape of Beasts or you may find remnants of Old Arcadia yet untouched by the True Fae.



                        Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
                          Very interesting conversation!

                          How would mage spheres interact with a dreamscape? Mage dreams?

                          --Khanwulf
                          To add into what xiongrey has written... Mage Arcana (I assume you meant these since that's the term for Awakening) would work the way they do in the Astral... namely, if something works that way in the Fallen World for Arcana, that's what you use in the Astral. The interesting thing here is that I think this could result in the Mage ending up with the Dream Invader type Conditions (and less way to deal with them) as they're imprinting an obviously alien ruleset, that of the Supernal, upon the Bastion. And who knows what could result of the influence of the Abyss on it. But some of the more negative effects of Onieiomancy should be considered.

                          I would consider a Mage likely has MORE chance to recognize (personally) that A) they're dreaming and B) someone is an invader. For A), I'd probably have them make a straight Gnosis roll. For B), it'd require they do succeed at realizing they were dreaming, then a Clash of Wills of Gnosis + Mind vs Wyrd + Manipulation for anything fae. This does mean the fae THEORETICALLY has an advantage at Wyrd 6+ since their Manipulation can also go higher, where Mind will be limited. Is it unfair? A bit, but that's sorta the nature of the CoD, I feel. For example, mages can magically make "cold iron" even though by definition you can't use magic in working it normally. They have somewhat of the field advantage in some areas, where changelings have it elsewhere (like in the dreamscapes of Bastions).

                          The previous was mostly the opinions of the writer... except the cold iron thing. Mage dev gave their opinion on that.



                          ​When noise turns to silence, when colors dull and pale, when reality no longer makes sense, there shall you find me. There, in the dreams of the River of Faceless Millions, do I dwell.

                          http://harenm.deviantart.com/gallery/ for my art.

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                          • #14
                            I wish that the line between living prop and eidolon was clearer. What is the line between them?

                            Also if you use Loyal Servant Contract in a dream on the dream stuff in the dream, is it locked into the substance the dream stuff mimics or can use shape it into any shape you could dreamweave it into?

                            "The line between eidolons and proplike things might be eidolons if they’re more like characters. A talking dog, a nightmare monster on a rampage, and a sapient computer could all be eidolons."

                            What makes something more like a character, sentence? A specific role in the dream? Can you have a sentient prop?

                            So a regular Polar Bear would be a prop, but a talking Polar Bear would be an Eidolon?
                            Last edited by Omegaphallic; 12-28-2017, 05:05 PM.

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                            • #15
                              A living prop would be more like an extra or a tool, so if that non-talking polar bear had a big role in the dream's plot (like.. the dream is of an icy villages terrorized by the dreaded polar bear Bloodclaw) theyd count as an eidolon, and if it can talk but is just an extra (one talking polar bear among many that only has one or two lines, like in golden compass) it could still be a living prop, I think.

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