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Fae Retainers Merit?

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  • Fae Retainers Merit?

    I noticed that Changeling core lacks rules for Fae Retainers aside from animated objects.

    But it meantions that Hobgoblins could have strange retainers like Changelings.

    And I was expecting a merit or side bar for Fae Touched Retainers, but there wasn't.

    VtR 2e had a side bar for Ghoul retainers for the retainers merit. And Secrets of the Covenants also had rules for Void Creature retainers.

    So was this oversight? They also had no rules for Hedge Beast Companions.

  • #2
    I think a side bar would work better, probably for the same reasons as Ghoul retainers. But yeah, I'd not thought of this till now, I think because I was just excited, but there is ROOM there for those...



    ​When noise turns to silence, when colors dull and pale, when reality no longer makes sense, there shall you find me. There, in the dreams of the River of Faceless Millions, do I dwell.

    http://harenm.deviantart.com/gallery/ for my art.

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    • #3
      Here is an example of what you can do even with what starts off as a regular retainer.

      Retainer ••••• : Belinda (an occult obsessed cheerleader hungry for magic and immortality)

      Tooling around around the dream roads a character finds Belinda, a mortal who was playing around with a odd book of occult knowledge who accidently used a key to enter the hedge with no way out.

      The character makes a Bargain with Belinda the character will grant her a new magical trick at least once a month, starting with making her a pyschic vampire and in exchange Belinda will act as a spy and assassin for the character seducing and killing whoever the character tells her too.

      The Changeling uses Dreamweaving to grant Belinda • Psychic Vampire merit which allows Belinda to deal bashing damage with a touch in exchange for Empherea which can be spent too stop herself from aging, to pay the Empherea bleed tax, and to heal herself of bashing and lethal damage.

      In time over months the Character grants Belinda more Psychic Vampire merits like Pyshic Battery and Psychic Seduction and Unearthly Beauty, mental merits like • Languages, • Direction Sense, and access to fae magic like the service of contract summoned fae, occult knowledge, the Library Merit, and so on.

      Yes this makes your retainer more powerful, but it's no worse then Mages casting spells on a retainer or a Werewolf adding their retainer to their pack.

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      • #4
        A bit off topic, but I wonder if you can increase the Retainer level of an object you've enchanted via Dance Of The Toys? An Exceptional Success allows you to buy it as a one dot retainer, but it doesn't say you can or can't increase the level of its competency.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Taidragon View Post
          A bit off topic, but I wonder if you can increase the Retainer level of an object you've enchanted via Dance Of The Toys? An Exceptional Success allows you to buy it as a one dot retainer, but it doesn't say you can or can't increase the level of its competency.
          Considering that the extended duration is the only benefit of exceptional success for this Contract whose base effect is "make an object do what it does, and if you are/know the right sort of fae it will have some discernment and/or mobility" and higher dots in Retainer explicitly represent a greater degree of competence, I'd say no.


          Resident Lore-Hound
          Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
            Considering that the extended duration is the only benefit of exceptional success for this Contract whose base effect is "make an object do what it does, and if you are/know the right sort of fae it will have some discernment and/or mobility" and higher dots in Retainer explicitly represent a greater degree of competence, I'd say no.
            Barring exceptional circumstances, that's a fair point. Thanks.

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            • #7
              Would it be enough to take the VtR ghoul approach? 1 contract at (*), 2 at (***) and 3 at (*****). I do feel that's an easy manor to translate the ability across. Only drawback is might be more likely for hobs to know more contracts than a ghoul would know disciplines.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Mr.F.I.X. View Post
                Would it be enough to take the VtR ghoul approach? 1 contract at (*), 2 at (***) and 3 at (*****). I do feel that's an easy manor to translate the ability across. Only drawback is might be more likely for hobs to know more contracts than a ghoul would know disciplines.
                It's workable, but the question is how powerful is a common contract compared to a discipline?

                Using Vigor passively you add it's dots to your strength passively at no cost, then the ghoul can choose to spend vitae for extra benefits. 3 dots in vigor makes the ghoul inhumanly strong.

                An Avowed on the other hand could have Loyal Servant, Glimpse of a Distant Mirror, Boon of the Scuttling Spider. These give the Avowed no passive benefit and they can use the loophole, but the Avowed has easy access to Glamour, and does not depend on a Changeling to harvest it. This Avowed can summon weak quasi hedge ghost like creature of countless different types into existence, spy via reflective surfaces to any distance as long as she's appeared in it, and walk on any surface, horizontal or vertical or slippery surfaces.

                So comparing that, I'd say, they are pretty equal, but very different, so it could work.

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                • #9
                  Omegaphallic the original reason I'd done this method for various minor templates is that the experience cost of the power is similar. Sure, templates are not balanced against each other but they are internationally balanced.

                  So, if a ghoul having a vampire's power why not a hob having not only a changeling's but their own abilities. This method is fast and lose with the rules yes but by working off a previous example it may be more balanced than just using the hob creation rules. Because if instead we had the standard creation rules here the issues you see would be far greater. Wyrd 1, 3 contracts. Wyrd 2, 5 contracts. Wyrd 3, 7 contracts. So this approach I suggest is just a varied degree of power that fits a wyrd 1 creature which the dice pool mechanics of retainer probably lie up best with regardless.

                  Next is since a hob is restricted from not taking royal or court contracts they are locked out of some of the stronger abilities anyway.

                  So ya, as you said, it can work I just thought I'd expand on why it can work in my opinion.

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                  • #10
                    I actually realized that you could set it up so your human retainer ends up with the Hedge Denizen Condition, instant hobgoblin, but one human looking enough to take into the ironside.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
                      I actually realized that you could set it up so your human retainer ends up with the Hedge Denizen Condition, instant hobgoblin, but one human looking enough to take into the ironside.
                      Wouldn't they benifit from a mask as all fae things do ironside anyway? That is if a non changeling is changed as it only says a changeling's mein is changed. I think you'd gain a mask and a mein as a hob but it isn't RAW.

                      With a human retainer though having hedge denizen they'd have two goblin contacts (I think) which kinda puts up back where we started? They also don't have a way to get or gather glamour as far as the condition is concerned so they rely on the loopholes.

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                      • #12
                        Necroing this thread real quick just to add some opinions.

                        Since the number of successes necessary for the Retainer with Dance of the Toys is 5(or 3 in some rare cases), and the object uses the activation successes to perform, I don't see why not you can't upgrade it to at least retainer 2 and make it have 4 dices to perform it's purposes. Of course, nothing on the book indicates that you can do that, but it's a little silly that your permanent animated object can't do its basic purposes with more than 2 dices.


                        Homebrews:
                        Vampire Bloodlines: Abhartach, Kiasyd
                        Ordo Dracul Coils: Hunger, Primal Blood
                        Mage Legacies: Infernal Ones, Daoine

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Horodrigo View Post
                          Necroing this thread real quick just to add some opinions.

                          Since the number of successes necessary for the Retainer with Dance of the Toys is 5(or 3 in some rare cases), and the object uses the activation successes to perform, I don't see why not you can't upgrade it to at least retainer 2 and make it have 4 dices to perform it's purposes. Of course, nothing on the book indicates that you can do that, but it's a little silly that your permanent animated object can't do its basic purposes with more than 2 dices.
                          I made a Fairest Seeming bonus that allows you to do that after a significant interaction between the enchanted object and the player, once a chapter. It prevents things from getting crazy too quickly, but allows advancement over time. Discussed here: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...ce-of-the-toys

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Horodrigo View Post
                            Since the number of successes necessary for the Retainer with Dance of the Toys is 5(or 3 in some rare cases),
                            Or one, because any changeling can force an exceptional success on every Contract they successfully use for the scene for a point of Glamour.

                            and the object uses the activation successes to perform,
                            It uses the activation successes to deal damage. In cases where its natural movement would deal damage. In the course of following a single simple command within the scope of its natural ability to move.

                            I don't see why not you can't upgrade it to at least retainer 2 and make it have 4 dices to perform it's purposes. Of course, nothing on the book indicates that you can do that, but it's a little silly that your permanent animated object can't do its basic purposes with more than 2 dices.
                            Your permanent animated object does not, barring the use of a seeming bonus that terminates the Contract past a certain range, gain any special degree of mobility or competence.

                            "A one-dot Retainer is mildly useful, mostly for reliably taking on menial tasks; sometimes you don't need to be wowed, you just need to get a thing from point A to point B." Not everything Retainers do are rolled actions, and this isn't like the multiple spells in Mage that model "you create a servant that can do something for you" with a scaled Retainer; you're not making a sentient car, you're indefinitely extending a power that makes a mundane object do something it already does so that you don't need to spend Glamour or name an object from scene to scene.


                            Resident Lore-Hound
                            Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                            • #15
                              A good start. I might also recommend looking at the Hedgebeast Companion merit from C:tL 1E: Hedgebeasts are normal animals who found themselves in The Hedge and survived there long enough to become a type of Hobgoblin. They're pretty weak compared to most of the things running around there, but still make great messengers, spies, watchbeasts, or just a friend for the lonely Changeling who'll probably judge rather less than their peers.


                              This Merit represents a positive relationship between the changeling and the hobgoblin in question. The Hedge Beast is not a servant or slave, although it is likely to aid the character in whatever reasonable ways the Hedge Beast can in exchange for the changeling’s aid, support and protection. The hobgoblin is not likely to put itself into overly hazardous positions; safety and support are a large part of why Hedge Beasts take companions in the first place. Especially in the human world, however, people tend to ignore animals, allowing the Hedge Beast opportunity to witness or overhear many things that might otherwise be hidden from the hobgoblin’s Lost companion.
                              Unlike humans, Hedge Beasts do not begin with an assumption of one point in each Attribute. An insect companion may well have a Strength of 0, while a skittish ferret may have no composure whatsoever. A companion is built according to the following guidelines; Hedge Beasts more powerful than these assuredly exist, but are not in need of changeling protectors, and therefore do not seek out such relationships.
                              • • Attributes 15 points total, Skills 18 points total, Merits up to five points, two dots of Contracts, Wyrd 1
                              • •• Attributes 18 points total, Skills 21 points total, Merits up to seven points, four points of Contracts, Wyrd 2
                              • ••• Attributes 21 points total, Skills 24 points total, Merits up to nine points, six points of Contracts, Wyrd 3
                              It should be remembered that unique and exotic Hedge Beasts may be more difficult to explain to the mundane world. Cats and dogs are seen as common companions, and can even be registered as service animals to facilitate their presence in public places. Rats and other rodentia, birds, lizards or snakes may elicit a bit more attention, but are still likely to pass with- out too much problem. Insects, fish and horses may be a bit more difficult to explain, while animals seen as dangerous (wolves, big cats or bears) or endangered (Tasmanian devils, lemurs or many birds of prey) may not only draw huge amounts of attention but the wrath of the human authorities as well. Likewise, horses and other “beasts of burden” as well as large animals of other sorts may be difficult for an urban changeling to house. Since the Hedge Beast is entering into the companion relation- ship predominantly for protection and sanctuary, boarding the creature away from the changeling, or having it remain within the Hedge for the majority of the time is dis-satisfactory treatment. Changeling characters who lose their companions through neglect, abuse or disrespect, or those whose companions are killed receive no refund of their Merit points. Depending on the circumstances and whether the situation was their fault or simply bad fortune, characters may or may not have earned enough respect amongst other Hedge Beasts to encourage another to seek out their companionship. If so, the characters do not need to pay again for their new companions, but this circumstance is at the judgment of the Storyteller.
                              Changelings and companions can enter into pledge bonds that will strengthen and define their relationship. This is not implied by the Merit; any pledge bonds can be formed in the usual fashion

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