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  • 2ed Elemental Weapon - Questions

    So, I read and loved most of 2ed Changeling.
    The elemental weapon is a contract particularly close to my heart for several reasons, not the least of which is simply the cool 'cinematics' of pulling a weapon out of an element.

    However, it for me thinking: are all elements created equal? E.g. Lightning would be much tougher to pull off than stone, and how would Light and Shadow apply? Could a changeling with a shadow Elemental Weapon be considered to be armed practically all the time, since they can just reach into their shadow? Could a light weapon be pulled from the air at day? From a flashlight? Only from sunrays like you get them in a forest?

    For that matter, do Elements 'summoned' through another contract count for this one ?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
    how would Light and Shadow apply? Could a changeling with a shadow Elemental Weapon be considered to be armed practically all the time, since they can just reach into their shadow? Could a light weapon be pulled from the air at day? From a flashlight? Only from sunrays like you get them in a forest?
    Considering what Elementals and the Sword are all about, combined with the fact that "make a weapon out of shadows" is a bonus from a different seeming and 1e made a point of specifying how ubiquitous elements like air played into the Contract of Elements and its neighbors, I think it's safe to say that the Common Contract of "turn an instance of a physical element into a weapon with the game traits of a weapon" doesn't normally interact all that much with "ephemeral" elements unless they're in an especially sharp/blunt/solid state.

    For that matter, do Elements 'summoned' through another contract count for this one ?
    They are the thing the Contract uses, so I don't seem much reason for them not to.


    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
      I think it's safe to say that the Common Contract of "turn an instance of a physical element into a weapon with the game traits of a weapon" doesn't normally interact all that much with "ephemeral" elements unless they're in an especially sharp/blunt/solid state.
      Nowhere is it stated that the element needs to by 'physical'. In fact, electricity from a socket is explicitly mentioned as an option, and fire isn't solid in any way, either. The Darkling Benefit also specifically says the weapon is created from shadows. So from my reading of the Contract, it is "turn an element into a weapon with traits of a normal weapon + bonus".

      Edit: realized the answer sounded pretty harsh - I just tried to be short due to writing on my phone and pressed for time. Don't mean to be disrespectful.
      Last edited by Wormwood; 08-07-2018, 11:12 AM.

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      • #4
        In my games, I would rule it necessary for the element to be noticeable to use it for the Contract. If your element was air, you’d at least need an active breeze, not just be in a place where you’re capable of breathing. I would also question using yourself for such things. In the shadow example, I’d say it required a shadow of something else. For air, you couldn’t just blow into your hand to produce an air weapon. That’s how I’d handle the situation.


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        • #5
          My understanding is that non-solid elements are okay, and anyone could make an elemental weapon out of shadows, but only a Darkling's would inflict the Blinded Tilt. I do think that comparatively weak elemental sources should probably be restricted in some way. Some just might not be strong enough, while others can only create size small weapons, and could even inflict a penalty to invoking the contract. This would hopefully encourage players to use their imaginations and seek out strong sources of their desired elements, rather than weak ones like their own shadows. That kind of stuff just seems rather lazy to me. Therefore, I would say that ambient light really isn't a good source, and direct sunlight is much better. However, I see nothing wrong with turning a flashlight into a lightsaber, as long as it's at night or otherwise really dark. That being said, if someone starts carrying one around with them at all times for this reason, that will get tedious real quick.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
            Nowhere is it stated that the element needs to by 'physical'. In fact, electricity from a socket is explicitly mentioned as an option, and fire isn't solid in any way, either.
            There's a reason that I said "physical" and not "solid."

            Electricity does a thing that is capable of causing harm. So does fire. Light needs higher intensity than is found in nature to do so on the timescale of combat turns, and shadows cannot do so at all in the absence of magic.

            2e Elementals have an affinity for the Sword Regalia because their narrative and thematic space is "the inanimate aspects of nature and the world are relentless and dangerous to be around." The Fairest and Darklings are classically associated with the more abstract/ethereal elements like light and air and darkness because the space those things occupy is less involved in driving the life from your body.

            A desk lamp is not going to rage out of control without the dramatic vectors forces like fire and electricity bring to bear. The mist in the old graveyard is not in the habit of forming spears to run you through. There is a tactile element to the things Elemental Weapon works with, as should be evident from how the loophole works.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
              However, it for me thinking: are all elements created equal? E.g. Lightning would be much tougher to pull off than stone
              For a lightning elemental, I'd be inclined to label their element "electricity" rather than "lightning". That way they can pull a weapon from the natural electricity present in lightning, but can also do so from, for instance, an electric socket (as you mentioned above) and aren't completely reliant on having a convenient thunderstorm!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                There's a reason that I said "physical" and not "solid."

                Electricity does a thing that is capable of causing harm. So does fire. Light needs higher intensity than is found in nature to do so on the timescale of combat turns, and shadows cannot do so at all in the absence of magic.

                2e Elementals have an affinity for the Sword Regalia because their narrative and thematic space is "the inanimate aspects of nature and the world are relentless and dangerous to be around." The Fairest and Darklings are classically associated with the more abstract/ethereal elements like light and air and darkness because the space those things occupy is less involved in driving the life from your body.

                A desk lamp is not going to rage out of control without the dramatic vectors forces like fire and electricity bring to bear. The mist in the old graveyard is not in the habit of forming spears to run you through. There is a tactile element to the things Elemental Weapon works with, as should be evident from how the loophole works.
                In that case your intended meaning went entirely over my head. I will lazily blaue the fact this is not my first language, but to be honest, I probably was in the wrong headspace to see that.

                Sounds reasonable. I didnt read closely enough I guess.
                Aw man, I really, really wanted my Fairest 'Light saber' using Knight.


                Edit: Ah well. Will go for stone, buy the Darkling benefit, Fluff it for fairest as clad in light, works nearly as well. Really liked the idea of grabbing a Ray of light, though.


                Btw, would metal as an element work?
                Last edited by Wormwood; 08-08-2018, 06:51 AM.

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                • #9
                  Metal would work as long as you stay away from iron I'd imagine, would probably be more flavourful to be more specific than just "metal" though.
                  Last edited by milo v3; 08-08-2018, 09:36 AM.


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                    There's a reason that I said "physical" and not "solid."

                    Electricity does a thing that is capable of causing harm. So does fire. Light needs higher intensity than is found in nature to do so on the timescale of combat turns, and shadows cannot do so at all in the absence of magic.

                    2e Elementals have an affinity for the Sword Regalia because their narrative and thematic space is "the inanimate aspects of nature and the world are relentless and dangerous to be around." The Fairest and Darklings are classically associated with the more abstract/ethereal elements like light and air and darkness because the space those things occupy is less involved in driving the life from your body.

                    A desk lamp is not going to rage out of control without the dramatic vectors forces like fire and electricity bring to bear. The mist in the old graveyard is not in the habit of forming spears to run you through. There is a tactile element to the things Elemental Weapon works with, as should be evident from how the loophole works.

                    Not so convinced about light and air being less involved in driving life from the body. Heat comes to mind (just look at how many deaths it caused this summer). Similarly, air can be quite destructive in a number of ways but these are even more tied to particular times and places. And electricity is not always harmful (your body runs on it [think interconnected stateful salt-acid batteries]).

                    Edit: Upon reflection, out of all of these elements, light is most likely the one that can kill you without the need for intervening actors. Afterall, rocks are not in the habit of leaping from the ground of their own accord and crushing one's skull. But sufficient exposure to the sun almost always results in death without medical intervention.
                    Last edited by Jacob; 08-08-2018, 12:30 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jacob View Post
                      Not so convinced about light and air being less involved in driving life from the body. Heat comes to mind (just look at how many deaths it caused this summer). Similarly, air can be quite destructive in a number of ways but these are even more tied to particular times and places. And electricity is not always harmful (your body runs on it [think interconnected stateful salt-acid batteries]).

                      Edit: Upon reflection, out of all of these elements, light is most likely the one that can kill you without the need for intervening actors. Afterall, rocks are not in the habit of leaping from the ground of their own accord and crushing one's skull. But sufficient exposure to the sun almost always results in death without medical intervention.
                      "To do so on the timescale of combat turns."

                      Combat turns. The things that span one to three seconds.

                      A rock is hard and sharp and can harm you in less than a minute if swung or thrown. Fire and electricity take mere seconds to have deleterious effects on other things. The most destructive aspects of air that we generally see attributed to supernatural beings involve wind.

                      This is a power that takes a physical element and turns it into a direct means of more effectively causing harm. Its mythic basis does not stem from turning harmless ambient particles into a sharp object.


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                      Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
                        Aw man, I really, really wanted my Fairest 'Light saber' using Knight.


                        Edit: Ah well. Will go for stone, buy the Darkling benefit, Fluff it for fairest as clad in light, works nearly as well. Really liked the idea of grabbing a Ray of light, though.


                        Btw, would metal as an element work?
                        I see no reason why your Fairest knight couldn't weaponize a flashlight into a hedgespun token of some sort.

                        I'm not sure what you mean by the next part. It sounds like you are choosing a single element like in 1E. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe that is the case for Elemental Weapon, and a different element could be chosen each time it is invoked. You could use metal one day, stone the next, and then sunlight on Tuesday, unless I'm misunderstanding.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hedgebound Heart View Post

                          I see no reason why your Fairest knight couldn't weaponize a flashlight into a hedgespun token of some sort.

                          I'm not sure what you mean by the next part. It sounds like you are choosing a single element like in 1E. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe that is the case for Elemental Weapon, and a different element could be chosen each time it is invoked. You could use metal one day, stone the next, and then sunlight on Tuesday, unless I'm misunderstanding.

                          It seems I have thrown the Elemental Warrior restriction into this contract. Huh. Thanks for pointing that out - that makes it a lot easier. And a lot of this thread moot - OP is content, this can be closed.
                          Last edited by Wormwood; 08-10-2018, 07:55 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                            "To do so on the timescale of combat turns."

                            Combat turns. The things that span one to three seconds.

                            A rock is hard and sharp and can harm you in less than a minute if swung or thrown. Fire and electricity take mere seconds to have deleterious effects on other things. The most destructive aspects of air that we generally see attributed to supernatural beings involve wind.

                            This is a power that takes a physical element and turns it into a direct means of more effectively causing harm. Its mythic basis does not stem from turning harmless ambient particles into a sharp object.
                            Light and gas (in ambient states no less) can and do occur in states quite capable of killing in seconds. Fun fact, jet fuel burns so hot that some 9/11 victims in the building cooked from the infrared output of the fire alone (and of course this kind of thing is common at ground zero of the average nuclear explosion - the fire being an aftereffect as it were). To say nothing of all the places on earth where highly toxic gasses seep forth.

                            Ultimately though, all that matters is the dramatic element all of these things bring to the game. I'd error on the side of permissivity if it makes for a good scene, chapter, story, or chronicle.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jacob View Post
                              Light and gas (in ambient states no less) can and do occur in states quite capable of killing in seconds.
                              Those states are generally not what one is dealing with in casual encounters where turning them into an archaic weapon is a better use of your turn than getting the thing you want dead into the area and getting yourself out. We have Elemental Fury if you want to fuck around with Tilts like that.


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                              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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