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Who can see through the Mask without actively using a power?

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  • Who can see through the Mask without actively using a power?

    The book it says that "supernatural creatures with mystical senses" see a Changeling's Mien instead of their Mask. Does this mean a Uratha can spot a Lost just walking down the street or do they have to be using a gift or rite? Vampire chewing gum, or do they need Auspex? Mage, and if so suggestions on which mage sight they need? And so on. Are there some that should just be able to see and others that must use an active ability?

    I play in a cross-genre larp and we're opening the venue this weekend, so I'm trying to suss out the rules for the players. I know I can make my own rulings (I'm the *relatively new* ST), but I'd like to get the community's ideas and maybe a developer's if they have the time.

  • #2
    Originally posted by MalachiteDrake View Post
    Does this mean a Uratha can spot a Lost just walking down the street or do they have to be using a gift or rite?
    I'm not sure actual rules, but I remember that Uratha can smell that if character has 'Wolf's Blood', as their supernaturals sense. I would assume the same here - Uratha can smell how changeling is really smelling, but not seeing past the Mask on general. So some flower-related Kiths smells like flowers, Lost made of stone has cold and wet smell, etc. And with those weird fragrance, they still see normal person. And typical Uratha thinks then: 'Well, this person is weird - it's time to hunt new Prey then!'
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 09-16-2018, 04:32 AM.


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    • #3
      A literal reading would be that any creature with supernatural senses would be able to see through the Mask even if not using those senses. I'm not sure that's intended, though. I'm more inclined to think that only the mystical senses (such as a werewolf's sense of smell) would pierce the Mask.
      A vampire's Auspex is not a sensory perception, but could still be used to find changelings if looking for them.


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      • #4
        I'd say the mystical senses could see past the mask. Mage magic or mage sight maybe, vampire disciplines, werewolf senses I'd put a maybe on but gifts or rights yes. Basically, is it a supernatural power, if yes then it probably the mask is seen through.

        Though if a werewolf's sense of smell could 'see' past the mask I agree with wyrd about how to approach it.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Mr.F.I.X. View Post
          I'd say the mystical senses could see past the mask. Mage magic or mage sight maybe, vampire disciplines, werewolf senses I'd put a maybe on but gifts or rights yes. Basically, is it a supernatural power, if yes then it probably the mask is seen through.
          I'm not sure where I read it, but I think Dave Brookshaw wrote that Mage Sight or Unveiling magic needs to be of the right Arcanum and succeed on a Clash of Wills to pierce a concealment supernatural power. One of the specific examples was the Changeling Mask, and the corresponding Arcanum was Fate. I don't know if other Arcana would be able to detect something off about the Changeling, or if the Mask would conceal all such traces, but to see past the Mask to the Mien, the Mage needs Fate.

          That said, without using a power a Mage would not see a Changeling's Mien. However any supernatural power use that isn't deliberately concealed triggers their Peripheral Mage Sight, which has the tendency to make the Mage curious.
          Last edited by KageMCS; 09-15-2018, 01:11 PM. Reason: re-read the title and facepalmed.

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          • #6
            It sounds like an old post. The Mask straight up doesn't work against supernatural means of perception so no Clash is required for Mage Sight or Unveiling spells.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by KageMCS View Post

              I'm not sure where I read it, but I think Dave Brookshaw wrote that Mage Sight or Unveiling magic needs to be of the right Arcanum and succeed on a Clash of Wills to pierce a concealment supernatural power. One of the specific examples was the Changeling Mask, and the corresponding Arcanum was Fate. I don't know if other Arcana would be able to detect something off about the Changeling, or if the Mask would conceal all such traces, but to see past the Mask to the Mien, the Mage needs Fate.

              That said, without using a power a Mage would not see a Changeling's Mien. However any supernatural power use that isn't deliberately concealed triggers their Peripheral Mage Sight, which has the tendency to make the Mage curious.

              Yeah, but that was for Changeling 1e. 2e is different. I'd ask Meghan.


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              • #8
                I'm with Tessie on this, it looks like any magic visions just pierce through it.

                It's no big deal. Presumably the strengthening of the Mask would allow you to hide from other supernaturals, if that was a concern.

                Though Meghan's input would be nice as neither of us are WoG and are just reading the book.
                Last edited by nofather; 09-15-2018, 01:30 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                  It sounds like an old post. The Mask straight up doesn't work against supernatural means of perception so no Clash is required for Mage Sight or Unveiling spells.
                  Ah, I have been going through some of the older stuff. Sorry for the mix-up, thanks for setting me right Tessie, Dave Brookshaw, and nofather!

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                  • #10
                    The actual supernatural senses are what see through the Mask, yeah. So you have to be using them to do it, but you don't have to Clash unless the changeling strengthens the Mask.

                    Magewise: Active Fate or Mind Mage Sight sees through the Mask automatically; other Arcana can do it as surface info with a Revelation, or can automatically see parts of the mien depending on the Arcanum. (For instance, Active Life Sight can see physical, bodily changes, but not Mantle effects like snow flurries or whatever.) Appropriate Unveiling spells can do it too, like Pierce Deception, or Supernal Vision with the Reach effect; and again, some of those can see bits of the mien appropriate to the Arcanum, like Forces Unveiling spells can pick up parts of the mien that are based on heat/cold, sound, etc. but wouldn't pick up physical changes like horns and whatnot.


                    Meghan Fitzgerald | Onyx Path freelance writer & developer
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                    • #11
                      Thank you for clearing that up! And I'm sure the mage fans will love seeing the addendum.

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                      • #12
                        Mmm, now I wonder... What about Beasts and their Family Resemblance power? Can they see directly through the Mask, or they just know that the changeling in question is not what they seem?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Zooroos View Post
                          Mmm, now I wonder... What about Beasts and their Family Resemblance power? Can they see directly through the Mask, or they just know that the changeling in question is not what they seem?
                          The latter.

                          Yes, if a changeling is nearby, they'll instantly know that not only are they Kin, but also that they're a changeling. However, from my reading of the Family Resemblance entry, nothing suggests that they can actually see past the Mask.

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                          • #14
                            There are particular Atavisms that would let a Beast, if not see past the Mask entirely, at least give them a partial view, especially if you allow the Mask to count as a kind of protection or metaphorical armor. The core Ugallu Birthright lets them uncover something hidden by supernatural means with a Satiety expenditure and CoW, and BPG suggests an alternative that lets them negate "protective measures" for a turn. The Atavism Eye of Heaven also reveals "supernatural fate or destiny" and could be theoretically used in conjunction with Weakness Exposed to partly or (with Satiety) completely pierce "armor" for a scene.

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