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2e Changeling and Mage- Arcadia

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  • 2e Changeling and Mage- Arcadia


    Hello, So I did a little bit of digging and found next to nothing that clarifies this point- Presumably Changeling Arcadia and Mage Arcadia are not the same, but where are people finding this information? Everything I've seen in changeling 2e and mage 2e seem to almost hint that it's the same. All the descriptors are nigh identical. There is a small entry that notes (in regards to an acanthus awakening) in mage 2e :

    "He strays from his usual pub and takes a stranger home; he’s never been with another man. The nameless lover leaves a messy bed and a poem... He takes his lover’s poem as a clue, and follows it to an unmapped forest... The lover doesn’t remember him. He doesn’t remember anything, and carries more poems, in his handwriting, stuffed into the pockets of an expensive coat. If they chase the first Mystery over the threshold — if they catch unseen strangers, or solve the amnesiac lover’s riddle — *secret woods flower into endless, bramble-edged paths*... Ancient mages wrote of a Watchtower dominated by twisted, vine-corrupted woods... Arcadia’s fairy lords are living forces of destiny. Don’t drink or eat what they offer. Don’t fall in love or lash out from hate, because you’ll trade your destiny for theirs. There are no trivial acts in the Watchtower of Fate and Time. *His lover was once a fairy’s slave.* What will he give up to win his memory back?... They’re never simple temptations with straightforward best answers, though *some enslave a soul to the Fae*, making them a bit worse than the rest..."

    This, the amnesiac lover in particular, seems to almost directly reference a changeling and the hedge. There are other numerous aspects that are a bit interesting and very closely resemble or seem to imply the same place. Something else strikes me as very intersting in changeling- At several points the book they refer to changeling abilities or otherwise as Supernal:

    " As their minion, tool, or plaything, some modicum of these Contracts applied to you as well. After all, of what use to an *arcane being* is a spy limited by mortal senses, and how quickly would they grow tired of *a plaything incapable of supernal dexterity?"

    This part in particular directly references pledges as being supernal(or at the very least promises in general):

    "But these already sworn deals are *not the only means by which the words of oaths hold supernal power* By investing your own Glamour into an oath, you can craft pledges that magically bind those involved in them. Carefully spun, pledges can offer a wellspring of power to those abide to their tenets — or a world of pain to those who treat them lightly."

    The last one:

    "He can choose a mythical beast, though he gains none of *its supernal powers* — only the physical form... He can also use the animal’s mundane senses and modes of movement; he can’t levitate, but as a winged dragon he could fly."

    As for any denial that what mages summon from arcadia are not true fae, that is entirely possible- and thus dismissed by this changeling entry:

    "Other strange beings cross through Arcadia, or live within it, hidden at the end of some long forgotten path, like the Huntsmen in their distant woods."

    This changeling entry on hunters even seems to imply a heavy theme of Fate:

    "Everything has rules. Rules and reliability. The crossbow and its quiver of 20 darling daughters are reliable. They do what you expect of them. You’re reliable. Your snares will catch, your sword will draw blood. The woods are treacherous. Without rules and order, the woods will consume you. The woods define you, and they are all you need."

    Furthermore, Huntsmen's hearts are bound inside of a mortal's Bastion to anchor them, which makes an awful lot of sense if they are essentially binding them to the closest part of the astral to the fallen world.(bastions seem to directly be Oneiros given that the means of entering, and more, is the nigh identical- Goetia and Eidolons very much seem the same in most regards):

    *This is their secret: to anchor them and allow them to manifest fully in the mortal world as creatures of Wyrd and flesh, the True Fae must hide the heart of a Huntsman within a Bastion. For months, even years, alien emotions plague some mortal’s sleep, thoughts of hunting in some dark and deep wood. A Huntsman can borrow some of the Gentry’s talent for oneiromancy and Hedge shaping, but they are forever blind to the Bastion that holds their heart — the one thing they cannot track down even with all their cunning, no matter how earnest their hidden longing.*

    " All a mage needs to enter her own dreams is a Resolve + Composure roll to meditate while going to sleep; Mind spells bypass the need for meditation or are used to enter the dreams of others. Spells within dreams are cast normally, except that Sleepers do not treat spells affecting the dream or its narrative as obvious magic." (mage)

    " Her player simply needs to succeed at a Resolve + Composure roll for her character to meditate while going to sleep to reach this state. The player may make this roll even if the changeling is already asleep, representing the character’s ability to realize she’s sleeping and take the reins, unless she suffers the Comatose Condition (p. 334). Contracts and other abilities work the same way in dreams that they do anywhere else. The changeling can target her own eidolons and any allies or intruders she finds there. She can also practice oneiromancy on her own dreams. If she leaves her own Bastion to wander the Hedge or other Bastions, she recovers no Willpower for that night’s rest." (changeling)


    There are more similarities but this is already far too long so I will leave it with those as an example of my reasons for questioning this.

    Tl;Dr- What I am looking for in particular is any *2e* reference or clarification that denies changeling arcadia being mage arcadia, or perhaps what mages, in general, think changeling arcadia is or why it is so similar in many regards. I am planning on running a changeling/mage campaign soon and we are running off of 2e in nigh exclusivity, and want to be sure that what I make represents the 2e lore as closely as possible, which as far as I have heard changed somewhat from 1e(though I will, of course, be applying personal preference in some aspects).

    From other things I've seen it sounds like at some point it was confirmed that they are not the same, but I have not seen anything in 2e that says as such. Going by the core books alone it seems as though Mage directly references arcadia as per changeling. The only thing that sticks out here is that changeling arcadia is so vast with so many possible aspects- rather than just time and fate- though this could come from the fact that mages, as much as they think they know, still know little about the supernal realm in detail.



    (edited for some miss-types)

    Last edited by Akkiraus; 01-27-2019, 01:39 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Akkiraus View Post
    Hello, So I did a little bit of digging and found next to nothing that clarifies this point- Presumably Changeling Arcadia and Mage Arcadia are not the same, but where are people finding this information?
    It's from a post from the Mage line dev, Dave Brookshaw, made on this very forum.

    Currently trying to find it, since it was made a while ago...assuming someone doesn't beat me to finding it.

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    • #3
      There are tons of them.

      In text, while there's no blaring "THESE TWO ARE NOT THE SAME", the elaboration in Mage 2nd that the Supernal is just simply not a place and the way it works versus the very real physicality and different set of rules for Changeling Arcadia also make it abundantly clear that the two are not the same as intended by canon.


      Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
      Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
        It's from a post from the Mage line dev, Dave Brookshaw, made on this very forum.

        Currently trying to find it, since it was made a while ago...assuming someone doesn't beat me to finding it.
        Is it the one to do with the previewed text?
        Or the broader view?

        In any case, the big two things:
        1. "supernal" and "arcane" are words that exist and see use independent from the context of Mage: the Awakened. There are only so many ways you can say "magical" before you start to repeat yourself.
        2. The Fae of Mage: the Awakening and the fae of Changeling: the Lost draw from the same narrative traditions and symbolism. They have about as much to do with each other as they do with DnD's Feywild, absent the ChroD setting conceit that the things closest to the abstract concepts of Fate and Time often manifest bearing the imagery, symbolism, and patterns of fae entities.


        Resident Lore-Hound
        Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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        • #5
          What ArcaneArts said. Mage's Arcadia is the Supernal World as seen by the Acanthus, which in turn is an overlay of Arcadian symbols on the Fallen World. The Fae that the Acanthus’ Mage Sight lets them interact with are Supernal Entities of Time and Fate; they are not the Gentry who abduct humans and turn them into changelings, nor the goblins who reside in the Hedge. That said, it would not surprise me to learn that a mage visiting Faerie (the Changeling Arcadia) or the Hedge would find them awash in the same symbols: while the two Arcadias are distinct, I suspect that they’re nonetheless related.

          That said, we still only have the 2e core book. I suspect that the official declaration that they’re distinct things has yet to be published. Signs and Sorceries will have more on Mage Sight and the Supernal World as seen by each of the Paths, which will go a long way toward showing how Supernal Arcadia is different from the Gentry’s Arcadia, including Arcadian Verges and Emanation Realms; and the next book after that (I believe) will be focusing on Mysteries involving non-Mage phenomena. I’m guessing that that is where the relation between the two Arcadias will be formally addressed, as said relation is one of the biggest Mysteries for mages involving changelings. (Likewise, I suspect that that’s the book that will go into detail about the various Realms Invisible that Signs and Sorceries doesn’t: the Shadow and how it relates to the Primal Wild, the Underworld and how it relates to Stygia, and so on.)


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          • #6
            I’m wondering if the Old Gods of Thistle are still a thing in 2e. They may not be, as they were part of 1e’s “canon doubt and uncertainty” about the relationship between the two Arcadias, while at the same time firmly declaring that even if Changeling’s Arcadia is in Mage’s Supernal Realms, it’s so far removed from the Watchtower of the Lunargent Thorn that it’s still not the same. In 1e terms, “distance” in the Supernal is measured in terms of conceptual differences; and the Realms of the Old Gods of Thistle, while based on Fate-like and Time-like symbols, were based on very different variants of Fate and Time than the ones understood by humans.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
              That said, we still only have the 2e core book. I suspect that the official declaration that they’re distinct things has yet to be published. Signs and Sorceries will have more on Mage Sight and the Supernal World as seen by each of the Paths, which will go a long way toward showing how Supernal Arcadia is different from the Gentry’s Arcadia, including Arcadian Verges and Emanation Realms; and the next book after that (I believe) will be focusing on Mysteries involving non-Mage phenomena. I’m guessing that that is where the relation between the two Arcadias will be formally addressed, as said relation is one of the biggest Mysteries for mages involving changelings. (Likewise, I suspect that that’s the book that will go into detail about the various Realms Invisible that Signs and Sorceries doesn’t: the Shadow and how it relates to the Primal Wild, the Underworld and how it relates to Stygia, and so on.)
              That would be the upcoming Fallen Worlds:
              Fallen Worlds: Fallen Worlds is about all the Mysteries that lead mages out of the material realm into the other planes within the Fallen World and beyond. Fallen Worlds would expand on the short descriptions of the Shadow, Underworld, and Depths, along with compressed rules for their inhabitants that are in M2nd with a chapter fully detailing mages in the Shadow, the Underworld, and stranger places that defy classification. Plus expanded rules for the inhabitants of these weird places, as antagonists and allies, and we’ll address some of the crossover questions that pop up from time to time regarding mages and the otherworlds described in other game lines.
              Presumably it would also include what it's like for mages to go to the Hedge and MAYBE Changeling-Arcadia.

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              • #8
                The two of them are definitely interlinked in some manner, simply by virtue of having similar symbolism and a relationship to Fate and Time. They can't really be the same place, though, because Supernal Arcadia isn't really a place, but a particular understanding of the wider 'Supernal World', which is itself essentially the software of reality more than a place.

                As I see it, 'Fallen' Arcadia (or 'Faerie') is to Supernal Arcadia what the Shadow is to the Primal Wild. It's just a part of Phenomenal Reality that reflects the symbols of a particular Supernal Realm more than elsewhere. It's definitely something a lot of Acanthus would be interested in and they could probably mess with Fae stuff using Fate, but they aren't really the same thing exactly.

                I personally like to think that Supernal Fae sometimes visit Faerie and True Fae who achieve Wyrd Transcendence go to Supernal Arcadia to become something akin to Gods, but that's just my headcanon.
                Last edited by Kleptomania; 01-27-2019, 04:47 AM.


                Raksi plays Peek-a-boo for keeps. ~ nalak42

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                • #9
                  The Hedge, and Faerie, aren’t more resonant with Supernal Arcadia more than everything else, though. To a mage, the Patterns of the Hedge, a Huntsman, or a Gentry are mostly Mind as well as Fate. Your average Acanthus can do things with a Time no Changeling can dream of, and Mastigos are better at Oneiromancy.

                  Look at the Hedge. look at it. It’s way more Pandemonic than Arcadian.


                  Dave Brookshaw

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                  • #10
                    ^ that by a lot. Keep in mind that the Wyrd basically loves finding a person's promises that revolves around "Always" and "Never" and basically twisting things around until you end up proving how false those words are. Changeling is a game concerned with perception and deception, both of others and of self, and all of it's approach to ideas about narrative lean heavily on psychoanalytical lenses even as it incorporates others.

                    "It's whatever makes you see, makes you believe,
                    and forget about the premonition you need to conceive."


                    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                    Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Akkiraus View Post
                      and want to be sure that what I make represents the 2e lore as closely as possible, which as far as I have heard changed somewhat from 1e(though I will, of course, be applying personal preference in some aspects).
                      I'd worry more about making it coherent over sticking to lore. Honestly, if it's an issue you could scale back the faire motifs from the Acanthus, and only use 'Arcadia' to refer to one of them. (Actually that last one might be a good idea either way for simplicity of language in the game even if you did make them the same place.)

                      Also, do you know what kinds of characters your players are going to have? I mean, if no one plays an Acanthus, you may well not have a problem. Actually, even if you do, depending on the type of game, you may not really need an answer.


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                      • #12
                        I think Equinox Roads also says they aren't the same. But yeah, Dave Bradshaw has said multiple times they are different things.

                        Not that is has to be that way at your table, but yeah.


                        Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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                        • #13
                          Wow, thanks for all the replies! Yeah sounds about like I was thinking then. I have a few concepts for how I run it, but the idea that it may be some kind of "reflection" or similar- in the likes of a funhouse mirror. Thematically when you really dig into them they seem quite different, though fate does play in a number of ways and time is a mess there. The point about it being more similar to Mind is a very good point, and when you think about it like that stands out quite a bit.(though I guess the same applies to the shadow etc.) Regardless, some of the symbology does seem very similar, I mean hell- look at the acanthus crest. Enough perhaps for a more twisted mage, one on the brink maybe, to make the confusion that they must somehow be connected.

                          The one thing that still sticks out to me is the acanthus awakening part of the book. It very much seems to reference a changeling. The part I skipped over seems to reference possibly hobgoblins as well. I'm curious if the lines simply got crossed here or?

                          In regards to the fact that they have the same narrative traditions etc as pointed out by Satchel- I suppose this is true, but the more I think of it the more I think- but how about in game/in setting? If they manifest in similar ways then there must be some kind of connection there, one that could be used indeed.

                          I am deathly curious as to what mages believe Arcadia is, and how they would define it. Seeing as they know a great deal about many of the other realms, yet when it comes to Arcadia they pull a blank. This is utterly bizarre to me. It makes me wonder if changeling Arcadia is far more than they can handle, possibly something else entirely compared to the rest. Yet, if that were the case would it not be all the more reason for them to be drawn to it? Maybe just an aspect of avoiding confusion of the two further, but without clarification(in book) I feel like this subject will be broached countless times. Regardless, the idea of it being some kind of twisted reflection(perhaps not just of mage arcadia but more) sticks with me as to the way I may run it.

                          Last edited by Akkiraus; 01-27-2019, 10:27 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Akkiraus View Post
                            It has been said by Dave, and by Meghan, that the Hedge is in the Astral Barrier. So the path of the Mage to the Astral and the Changeling to the Dreams are so similar.
                            By order:
                            Dreams
                            Astral Barrier - Which Mage go through spending a mana. Here is Hedge and Faerie.
                            Oneiros
                            Temenos
                            Anima Mundi.

                            As for the symbolic overlap, it would not be very different from the overlap between Underworld and Stygia. The Supernal Worlds are the way of seeing the Symbols of universe, not of places, and it makes sense that some places in the Fallen Worlds are so related to specific symbolic realms. Probably this was purposeful for who created the Watchtowers.

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                            • #15
                              The Hedge is in the Astral Barrier; The Gentry may not be. Also, the Astral “map” doesn't stop at the Anima Mundi; unless it has been radically altered from 1e, you then run into the Astral form of the Abyss, the Ocean Oroboros(sp?), and then there Supernal Emanation Realms (which have unofficially been confirmed to still be a thing in 2e, and will be presented as Realms connected to the Fallen World by way of Irises found in Supernal Verges). It's still possible at this point that the Arcadian Realms of the Gentry will turn out to be located on the other side of the Ocean Oroboros, and that the Hedge is akin to a Golden Road running through the Astral Barrier.

                              And you're right to point out the Psychomorphic properties of the Shadow. As well, the Underworld also has some Psychomorphic properties. So that doesn't keep the Hedge from being especially resonant with Supernal Arcadia any more than it keeps the Shadow from being especially resonant with the Primal Wild. At this point, any such connections are up to you.


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