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2e Changeling and Mage- Arcadia

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  • #16
    Uh, guys, the Hedge=Astral Barrier isn't textually canon yet.


    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
    Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.
    Currently Working On: Memento Mori(GtSE)

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    • #17
      Fair enough.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
        and then there Supernal Emanation Realms (which have unofficially been confirmed to still be a thing in 2e, and will be presented as Realms connected to the Fallen World by way of Irises found in Supernal Verges).
        They're in the core. Also they've been moved, they're on our side of the Abyss now (Though that's a detail that's very easy to miss if you're familiar with 1e).


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        • #19
          I appreciate the question at the start has already been answered, but my two cents on Mage Arcadia and Changeling Arcadia being the same is this;

          Mages and Changelings have no innate knowledge of one another, and their books don’t reference one another in any significant way that I can find. Changeling Contracts and Mage Spells have no overlap in mechanics or even themes; Changelings don’t deal with the Supernal, and Mages don’t deal with the Wyrd, and neither side has any innate knowledge on the other. Even the Gentry, the beings who run Arcadia and thus would be the most likely to have both powersets at their disposal, don’t display anything like the powers of a Mage, always using Glamour, Wyrd and Contracts, as well as general Hedge Shaping. If the two Arcadias were the same, you would think that they would share at least a consistent powerset among them.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
            Uh, guys, the Hedge=Astral Barrier isn't textually canon yet.

            It is, however, in the text of at least one book I've read that hasn't been published yet. So, you know, it's more of a spoiler than a theory right now.


            Dave Brookshaw

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post


              It is, however, in the text of at least one book I've read that hasn't been published yet. So, you know, it's more of a spoiler than a theory right now.
              Ah, that does render that comment moot.


              Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
              Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.
              Currently Working On: Memento Mori(GtSE)

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              • #22
                Originally posted by RaphaTheAscended View Post
                It has been said by Dave, and by Meghan, that the Hedge is in the Astral Barrier. So the path of the Mage to the Astral and the Changeling to the Dreams are so similar.
                Clarifying spoilers notwithstanding, it's worth pointing out that that's not quite how that discussion went.

                Still, good to hear a follow-up on that particular tidbit post-2017.


                Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                • #23
                  Yeah, since then we agreed that it did make the nost sense.


                  Dave Brookshaw

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                  • #24
                    Obviously things have changed since then, but back in 1st edition I tended to go with the idea that the various worlds were phenomenal world reflections or incarnations of the Supernal Realms. So the Underworld was the realm dominated by Stygia, the Umbra was the one dominated by the Primal Wild, the Astral came from Pandemonium, and Arcadia and the Hedge were reflections of, well, Arcadia. The Aether was always a puzzle, though. It could be that its fallen reflection mapped to wherever the quashmal came from, but I thought a better fit was that realm where mana flowed around in ley lines and there were great cities of light and electricity.


                    Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
                      Obviously things have changed since then, but back in 1st edition I tended to go with the idea that the various worlds were phenomenal world reflections or incarnations of the Supernal Realms. So the Underworld was the realm dominated by Stygia, the Umbra was the one dominated by the Primal Wild, the Astral came from Pandemonium, and Arcadia and the Hedge were reflections of, well, Arcadia. The Aether was always a puzzle, though. It could be that its fallen reflection mapped to wherever the quashmal came from, but I thought a better fit was that realm where mana flowed around in ley lines and there were great cities of light and electricity.
                      Just following up on what you said, has there ever been any statement to the effect that a mage can get into the hedge or Gentry Arcadia with Fate alone?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Newes View Post
                        Just following up on what you said, has there ever been any statement to the effect that a mage can get into the hedge or Gentry Arcadia with Fate alone?
                        I don't know of an official statement of this, but I would personally say yes. Humans can get there through random luck and the Wyrd (such as a Hedge Gate being open at the right time), and if a lucky human can do it, imo a Fate Mage can do it.

                        Of course, getting back might be a different matter…because I wouldn't be at all surprised if magic works differently there. In the Hedge, literally anyone can reshape reality with their thoughts and emotions. So imagine what would happen if you cast a reality-warping spell, and those thoughts and emotions then triggered the Hedge's "natural" reshaping…

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                        • #27
                          When Mage second edition was out but Changeling still was in first edition Dave said it would require Fate 3 to open existing Hedgeways and Fate 5 to create new ones. Now that Changeling 2e is out he's said it takes equal parts Fate and Mind at the same levels.
                          The general rule is that it's the third dot to open pre-existing portals and the fifth dot to create them. The Hedge has been refocused (and reexamined) so that Fate+Mind makes more sense than just Fate.

                          Edit: Unlike other supers (demons using Rip the Gates, for example) mages have no problems using the same spells to get out. Supernal magic doesn't change based on where you are in the phenomenal (more than marginally being easier in places resonating with the spells you cast) unless you're in an Abyssal Verge or something, and the Fate component naturally negates any clauses that the Wyrd puts on people trying to leave.
                          Last edited by Tessie; 01-28-2019, 01:41 PM.


                          Bloodline: The Stygians
                          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                          • #28
                            Presumably this is because of its newfound connection to dreams.

                            Eh. I'm not a fan of requiring conjunctional use of Arcana for this sort of thing: if you can use Spirit to enter the Shadow and Death to enter the Underworld, I'm fine with using just Fate to enter the Hedge. Yes, it's got some elements that would seem to relate to Mind; but so does the Shadow. And I'm fine with using Mind when in the Hedge to access peoples' dreams; but unlike CtD's Dreaming, the Hedge itself is not peoples' dreams.

                            If I had to pick a Realm Invisible that is accessible using Mind, I'd pick Astral Space — except that mages can access that without using any Arcana. As is, I still use Mind for nontraditional access to the Astral, like forcing your way into a Beast's Lair.
                            Last edited by Dataweaver; 01-28-2019, 05:57 PM.


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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
                              The Aether was always a puzzle, though. It could be that its fallen reflection mapped to wherever the quashmal came from, but I thought a better fit was that realm where mana flowed around in ley lines and there were great cities of light and electricity.
                              Sounds more like a Realm Invisible for the God-Machine. I've got a thoroughly unofficial expansion for Demon called “Heaven” which is modeled loosely off of Ascension's Digital Web and Shadowrun's Matrix; and when crossed over with Mage, that's the world that Prime lets you access. IMC, of course.


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                              • #30
                                The "reflection" thing is a very popular fanon that none of the games have ever supported. IIRC. athey certainly don't now.


                                Dave Brookshaw

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