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  • #46
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post

    Opening a portal with a spell bypasses the Key (word applied to both its regular Key and indulging a Vice in this case). Just because the Key is easy to find/create doesn't mean the portal will be any easier to force open without it. What you could potentially do at lower dot levels is to facilitate the Key, but in the case of indulging a Vice the Hedgeway won't open most of the time, and if it does open it'll slams shut once the person has entered rather than staying open for the duration of your spell.
    Doors are made to be opened. Opening is fulfilling their purpose, ergo you should only need Compelling or Ruling to force the door. Compelling would be if you have a sometimes-key (such as fulfilling a Vice) and you're just nudging it to definitely work, whereas Ruling would simply force the thing open.

    Hedgeways are generally one-way for non-Fae (indulging a Vice only works from ironside, and the proper Key is generally not the same from both sides) so once in the Hedge the mage would still require having the right Arcana for getting out, unless they find someone who can open a Hedgeway for them.
    Well, yes, obviously. I didn't say it was safe to wander into the Hedge, just that it's comparatively easy to wander in.


    Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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    • #47
      Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
      Doors are made to be opened.
      They are also made to be shut.

      Opening is fulfilling their purpose, ergo you should only need Compelling or Ruling to force the door.
      There are specific things you need to do in normal circumstances to get a door to open. If you want to open a door without doing the thing you need to do to open the door, you need to change the door's conditions for opening. That's changing a quality of the door without changing it into something other than a door. That's Weaving.


      Resident Lore-Hound
      Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Satchel View Post
        They are also made to be shut.

        There are specific things you need to do in normal circumstances to get a door to open. If you want to open a door without doing the thing you need to do to open the door, you need to change the door's conditions for opening. That's changing a quality of the door without changing it into something other than a door. http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/872952-a-changeling-related-question?p=873580#post873580"]That's Weaving[/URL].
        And piggybacking on top of that (although Dave said it in the linked post too) a Hedgeway is an Iris. Everything in 2e core that opens an Iris is Weaving (see Reaching, Spirit 3 for example), ergo opening a Hedgeway would also be Weaving.

        Satchel's got the right of it and hit the nail on the head.


        Freelancer (He/His Pronouns): CofD - Dark Eras 2, Kith and Kin, Mummy 2e, Oak Ash and Thorn; Scion - Mysteries of the World

        CofD booklists: Beast I Changeling | Demon | Deviant (TBA) | Geist l Hunter l Mage | Mummy | Promethean | Vampire | Werewolf (WIP)

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
          They are also made to be shut.

          There are specific things you need to do in normal circumstances to get a door to open. If you want to open a door without doing the thing you need to do to open the door, you need to change the door's conditions for opening. That's changing a quality of the door without changing it into something other than a door. That's Weaving.
          If those are the official rules, those are the official rules, can't say they make sense to me, though.

          [Edit] To be clear, I understand the "Weaving to apply property of being open" argument, I just feel that "Ruling to force the door to open" makes more sense because 1) that's what you'd use on an actual door to force aside whatever was holding it closed and 2) if you can mind control people with Ruling you should be able to open a gateway with Ruling, both are performing natural functions under your order.
          Last edited by proindrakenzol; 02-01-2019, 03:23 AM.


          Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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          • #50
            Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
            Equally meaning no disrespect, but fanon also is the source of a lot of problems with these conversations to begin with. Hell, half of the problems of Mage/Changeling arguement threads are rooted in a fanon understanding.

            A whole lot of fanon is very often like a wave-particle function-it works "fine" until it's actually looked at, at which point it rapidly collapses. The other problem is that since a lot of people look for surface answers because they are quick and easy, the type of fanon described spreads like wildfire and becomes the popular understanding, which just makes problems when it become apparent with even a shred more of questioning (as often happens with question threads, as much as people look for the surface answer) the answer so many accept as "canon" is actually wrong.

            Fanon's fine at the table, and I get the appeal of ease for it-I, too, once mapped the Supernal to every other gameline as a one-to-one-but when people are discussing the actual text in a shared context that isn't centered on your table, bad fanon can fuck that conversation, and I've seen it happen so much for Chronicles alone that I could easily describe a lot of conversation on this site as "No one shot the fanon early and now we have to deal with this shit."
            To be fair, Chronicles kind of delights in being inscrutable. You can hardly blame folks for clinging to easy, clean fanon answers when canon is actively trying to confound their efforts to understand it. I love how beautifully complex and mysterious Chronicles can be, but it's kind of begging to be misunderstood.


            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
              Doors are made to be opened.
              A door is designed to be easily opened and closed, and can remain open or closed indefinitely if you leave it like that (and there isn't a door closing mechanism attached). That's not what an Iris is.
              The natural and only indefinite state of an Iris is being closed, and it takes uncommon circumstances (if not outright supernatural powers that cost a fuel stat) to force them open temporarily.
              You could use a Key, but that's unlocking the Iris, not just opening it like you would a door, and you can use spells of different Practices to facilitate or possibly emulate a Key and open it that way. That's the closest analogue you'll get to opening a door, using a spell to turn the Key just like you'd use Ruling to turn the handle of a door. Exactly which Practice depends on the Key, though, as they're much more diverse than just mechanical contraptions that can be manipulated with Matter 2, or electrical locks that can be manipulated with Forces 2.


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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              • #52
                Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
                [Edit] To be clear, I understand the "Weaving to apply property of being open" argument
                For clarity's sake, I should point out that the argument is not "Weaving to apply the property of being open." It's "Weaving to change the property of 'opens at midnight for a red-haired child' to 'opens under whatever condition makes it traversable in the timeframe that the spell is used and active.'"


                Resident Lore-Hound
                Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                • #53
                  Or “opens for me for the duration of this spell”.


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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                    Imperial Mysteries included a brief section on the Empyrean, a hypothetical state of being “above” even the Supernal, that was suggested as a possible source of the qashmallim; and the same book, when describing how Imperial Practices are able to mess with templates, listed what Arcana would be needed to mess with the various templates in the setting, such as vampires or changelings; but it left out anything relating to Promethean.
                    Don't forget "On very rare occasions, strange entities superficially resembling Angels of the Aether but not responding to Prime or Forces magic have been witnessed at work in the Fallen World." Of course, it could be that archmages are simply too stupid to try other arcana, but I'd typically expect Forces and Prime to be the #1 arcana that don't care about what something is.


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