Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Prerequisite: Non-Changeling

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Prerequisite: Non-Changeling

    There are two merits with the prerequisite “Non-changeling” Lucid Dreamer and one from the Fae-Touched section.

    So does this mean vampires, ghouls, werewolves, mages, huntsmen and fetches can take these?

    The more official answer I can get the better, because I’m pretty confused if the intention was “literally anyone who can take merits, except the Changeling template”. Was this the intent?

    Thanks.

  • #2
    For Lucid Dreamer, I think there's an unspoken prerequisite that they have to be able to dream too. Which may or may not rule vampires out, depending on your ST.

    However, I would take "non-Changeling" as meaning exactly what it says: anything that's not a Changeling (that has merit dots to spend and makes thematic sense). There are other places where "non-Changeling" means exactly this: see page 341, "non-changelings must gain or lose a dot of Integrity or an equivalent trait" (emphasis mine).

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Draconis View Post
      For Lucid Dreamer, I think there's an unspoken prerequisite that they have to be able to dream too. Which may or may not rule vampires out, depending on your ST.
      Vampires defintely dream while they are in torpor.


      Freelancer (He/His Pronouns): CofD - Dark Eras 2, Kith and Kin, Mummy 2e, Oak Ash and Thorn; Scion - Mysteries of the World

      CofD booklists: Beast I Changeling | Demon | Deviant (TBA) | Geist l Hunter l Mage | Mummy | Promethean | Vampire | Werewolf (WIP)

      Comment


      • #4
        Oh, they "dream", but the question is whether that involves a Bastion on the Dreaming Roads or not. Because it's not happening while they're asleep: they don't sleep (and any effects that would make them fall unconscious automatically fail iirc). They're quite literally dead during that time.

        That said, I'd love to see what sort of Bastion a torpor dream would make. What happens if you ruin the dream? Is it possible to wake someone up early that way?

        Comment


        • #5
          There have been some suggestions that vamps end up in the Underworld during daysleep and/or Torpor (those states are different). Not likely to be true, but if it is it'd definitely impact all kinds of dreaming related stuff.

          The non-Changeling prerequisite for Lucid Dreamer likely only refers to humans and fae-touched. It might refer to fetches, huntsmen and goblins, but it most certainly does not directly refer to any other splats. They'd have to be determined on a case to case basis.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

          Comment


          • #6
            Mages and Beasts would gain no benefit from Lucid Dreamer as both splats can already lucid dream (more or less). Others would be dependent on whether the ST says they dream enough like a human for it to matter. Personally, I believe all the playable splats (except maybe Mummies) dream human enough for it to be an option unless superseded by an intrinsic ability of that splat.

            For Expressive... I don't know. My gut reaction is Vampires, Prometheans, and Mummies (wtf is a Mummy doing hanging out in the Hedge long enough for this to apply, anyway?) probably don't qualify because they're not really alive to feel emotions, at least for Changeling harvesting purposes.


            Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
              For Expressive... I don't know. My gut reaction is Vampires, Prometheans, and Mummies (wtf is a Mummy doing hanging out in the Hedge long enough for this to apply, anyway?) probably don't qualify because they're not really alive to feel emotions, at least for Changeling harvesting purposes.
              I know Vampires not feeling emotions was a thing in 1e, but it got dropped in 2e. Prometheans and Mummies definitely feel them as well.


              Freelancer (He/His Pronouns): CofD - Dark Eras 2, Kith and Kin, Mummy 2e, Oak Ash and Thorn; Scion - Mysteries of the World

              CofD booklists: Beast I Changeling | Demon | Deviant (TBA) | Geist l Hunter l Mage | Mummy | Promethean | Vampire | Werewolf (WIP)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Second Chances View Post
                I know Vampires not feeling emotions was a thing in 1e, but it got dropped in 2e. Prometheans and Mummies definitely feel them as well.
                Hence "gut reaction" and "for Changeling harvesting purposes."

                For Vampires, especially, it's because I feel the Beast makes their emotions too alien for a Changeling to harvest, but there is no canon answer for 2e.


                Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

                Comment


                • #9
                  On the other hand, I'd let it happen but give it weird side effects. Perhaps vampires only produce proper Glamour when in frenzy, and it tastes weird, tainted by the Beast. What happens when you use that Glamour too much? Does it start infecting your mind, does your id start to develop into a proto-Beast in the back of your mind? Perhaps when you harvest from a Promethean you just get Disquiet, no matter what emotions they're feeling at the time. The corebook even had a plot hook involving Disquiet-glamour, though it's unclear whether that came from the Promethean or from the humans around—but since the book implies it's a long-term setup, and Disquieting people in the middle of Prague isn't very sustainable, I imagine they're siphoning it off the Promethean himself. Mummies…no idea, never read that book, sorry.

                  Basically it comes down to my STing philosophy, that (especially for Changeling) it's boring to just say "no that doesn't work". It's far more fun to say "yes, and…"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
                    For Vampires, especially, it's because I feel the Beast makes their emotions too alien for a Changeling to harvest, but there is no canon answer for 2e.
                    Insofar as it's not stated in the book, sure, but, well…
                    Originally posted by Rose Bailey View Post
                    Changelings can absorb Glamour from any sophont with emotions. Vampires count. Ghosts count. No special effects for taking energy from specific other monsters... we've been trying to cut down on those in second edition, because it means making up a wide variety of special effects and if every one is just a different flavor of magic potion, the fun gets lost.


                    Resident Lore-Hound
                    Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                      Insofar as it's not stated in the book, sure, but, well…
                      They really need to put out a FAQ for this shit. Trawling through random forum posts (which might not even be on this site) does not help with getting consistent answers to things.


                      Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        While a changeling cannot harvest Glamour from any fae creatures (including other changelings, Hedge denizens, or the True Fae), she may harvest from any other type of intelligent being with emotions, such as humans, ghosts, or vampires.
                        Changeling 2e core, p. 103.


                        Meghan Fitzgerald | Onyx Path freelance writer & developer
                        Changeling: The Lost 2e developer

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Meghan Fitzgerald View Post

                          Changeling 2e core, p. 103.
                          Are Huntsmen and other web denizens considered “Non-changelings”?

                          (If they can take merits, that is. Note to self to check that.)
                          Last edited by Thenomain; 02-05-2019, 08:33 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Thenomain View Post

                            Are Huntsmen and other web denizens considered “Non-changelings”?

                            (If they can take merits, that is. Note to self to check that.)
                            No, because Merits are written for player characters. Huntsmen and other antagonists do have some Merits, but the ST chooses them based on some guidelines and they’re only there to provide story hooks where appropriate. Lucid Dreamer is pointless to give an NPC.


                            Meghan Fitzgerald | Onyx Path freelance writer & developer
                            Changeling: The Lost 2e developer

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Meghan Fitzgerald View Post

                              Changeling 2e core, p. 103.
                              A little off topic: can Fetch harvest glamour or replenish the glamour pool?

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X