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  • #16
    Originally posted by The Throne View Post
    A little off topic: can Fetch harvest glamour or replenish the glamour pool?
    Yep. Harvest and reap, eat goblin fruits, etc.


    Meghan Fitzgerald | Onyx Path freelance writer & developer
    Changeling: The Lost 2e developer

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Meghan Fitzgerald View Post

      No, because Merits are written for player characters. Huntsmen and other antagonists do have some Merits, but the ST chooses them based on some guidelines and they’re only there to provide story hooks where appropriate. Lucid Dreamer is pointless to give an NPC.
      I don’t mean to come off as antagonistic, and I apologize if the technicalities of the question are bothersome, but I looked for a section that would give guidelines to the ST, or anything other than the build instructions that, e.g., Hobs get x merits based on their Wyrd. Unfortunately I didn’t see anything. I will keep looking.

      I don’t know why you think that giving Lucid Dreamer to an NPC would be pointless, but it’s probably a preference thing and I don’t think it ties into to my question. (To which the answer seems to be “yes, it literally means anyone but Changelings”.)

      Thanks.

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      • #18
        I do not mean to speak for Meghan, however I do understand her point. The rules for Merits are an abstraction used to create player characters, not NPCs. The stats on a character sheet are big hooks that folks running the game can hang their narrative on. If a storyteller feels that it is important that an NPC be a particularly lucid dreamer ... she doesn't need to justify the purchase on a player formatted character sheet.

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        • #19
          My question then, Firefly, is why have "Wyrd 1 - 2 Merits" under the Hobgoblin creation rules if the abstraction was not meant (edit: or approved) to be used for the merits? I am sincerely (though not overwhelmingly) confused by being given tools and then being told not to use them. I'm willing to roll with it, but I'm having trouble justifying it given what I know after reading the book.

          Part of what I'm asking Meghan, and now you, is where I should be reading in the book to get into this mindset.
          Last edited by Thenomain; 02-05-2019, 09:41 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Thenomain View Post
            My question then, Firefly, is why have "Wyrd 1 - 2 Merits" under the Hobgoblin creation rules if the abstraction was not meant (edit: or approved) to be used for the merits? I am sincerely (though not overwhelmingly) confused by being given tools and then being told not to use them. I'm willing to roll with it, but I'm having trouble justifying it given what I know after reading the book.

            Part of what I'm asking Meghan, and now you, is where I should be reading in the book to get into this mindset.

            Hi Thenomain,

            I guess it really depends on how you are approaching the text and the rules. Whether you are utilizing the rules as a player or a storyteller. As a player, you may have interest in learning more about hobgoblins. You may have a Fae Mount or a hobgoblin retainer that you want to stat up as an extension of your own character. You do this to let the person running the game and your fellow players know that:

            1) this hobgoblin is important and defining aspect of your character's story.
            2) there is a concrete way to interact with the hobgoblin in the context of the rules.

            If you are approaching the text as person running the game (Storyteller), you probably want to avoid using this level of granularity for all but your most important NPCs, as it creates an unneccessary amount of work for a role that is already overloaded with responsibilities. Unless there is an overly antagonistic relationship between the players and the storyteller, the person running the game is usually trusted to create believable NPCs and antagonists that exist to push the story forward without having to submit these stats for peer review. For example, I find the creation guidelines for hobgoblins useful to me as a storyteller because it gives me a better understanding of what they are capable of and their general power levels. When making a minor hobgoblin npc for a game, my "character sheet" for him may be something like "Fighting Dirty (5 dice), Sneaking (7 dice), Lying (6 dice, 9-again). 6 Glamour, may spend a point to disappear into shadows."

            If it is important to my story that this above mentioned hobgoblin is a lucid dreamer, I just write in (can do some onieromancy stuff by spending glamour).

            I mean, as a storyteller you can create a completely detailed and perfectly balanced Hobgoblin character sheet for all of your NPCs that you then show others to make sure that it plays by the rules ... but why bother?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Firefly Night View Post
              but why bother?
              I suppose for the same reason we do anything: Because it’s there.

              Even knowing that Rule Zero is always in effect (if the rules get in the way of your game, ignore them), I still don’t see the purpose of writing a rule for a rule book and then pointedly telling people not to use it.

              I can get behind (and often do) using whatever style is best for the table, but everyone’s style and experience will be different. This is a truism, and thank goodness that it is, but it is my motivation for asking where in the book I can find this style explained.

              Thank you for the thoughtful methodology explanation and ideas.

              Yrs,
              - Thenomain.

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              • #22
                Hi Thenomain,

                I should have prefaced my previous responses with the caveat that everything I have written is based on personal anectdotal experiences ... or rather YMMV. I have ran games for years and was just relating my opinion that, I had felt at the time, added to Meghan's advice concerning the use of Merits for NPCs. As far as I can tell, there isn't much in the way of advanced advice for storytellers in the 2nd edition text. I am guessing that it has more to do with word count restrictions than anything else. So, I do agree with you that this book does lack really effective storyteller advice for folks transitioning from a player to gamesmaster role, as its storytelling advice seems to be more about providing stats for NPCs and techniques designed to allow players and storytellers to explore troublesome themes in a safe, consensual way.

                If you are looking for a passage or a page number to support Meghan's advice or my own insights, they don't exist. It would be nice if they did, as the experience of running an engaging game can only be gained over years and years of practice and it would be great to share it with fledgeling storytellers, and maybe someday a Changeling book will.
                Last edited by Firefly Night; 02-06-2019, 03:29 PM.

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                • #23
                  I don't really see how it would be faster or less work to note that an NPC has an ability and then having to come up with what that means in the game if it were to come up during play, than just jotting down trait name and page reference in your notes. It's already developed and written for you. Gonna throw away that tool just because it's not for NPCs?


                  Bloodline: The Stygians
                  Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                  Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                    I don't really see how it would be faster or less work to note that an NPC has an ability and then having to come up with what that means in the game if it were to come up during play, than just jotting down trait name and page reference in your notes. It's already developed and written for you. Gonna throw away that tool just because it's not for NPCs?
                    again, YMMV... just giving my perspective on why I believe that completely statting out every NPC along the same complexity as PCs is putting unneeded labor on a storyteller. I use and appreciate the tools presented to me in text, but i guess i approach things more as a scenic designer than as an architect. Things only need to look good to the audience during the scene, and from twenty feet away. No one needs to see the unpainted surfaces that you can only view from backstage. It works for the duration of the scene but it isn't a place you are going to live. If the NPC becomes more important, I'll flesh it out more but I won't let rules tell me that I can't do something if it makes narrative sense to me to disagree.

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                    • #25
                      Okay, to clarify.

                      If you want to give a hobgoblin Lucid Dreamer, go ahead! You're not breaking anything by doing so. The book is not written from the perspective that Merits are relevant to Horror-type NPCs because that's not what Merits are for; the reason the hobgoblin/Horror creation rules tell you that you can give hobgoblins Merits if you want is to keep track of story elements like Allies or Retainers or whatever. Another good example is the Omen Sensitivity Merit: an NPC's "player" is never going to need to ask the Storyteller for clues, so giving them the Merit's mechanics doesn't do anything--that was written for players. That doesn't mean an NPC can't be sensitive to omens, it just means using the Merit for that doesn't make much mechanical sense.

                      Besides that, in this particular case: hobgoblins and Huntsmen don't have souls, are not human, and mostly don't dream the way humans do, so saying they can enter the Gate of Ivory when they sleep doesn't make a ton of sense. If you want to make one specific hobgoblin who does something weird, cool! Do that. But hobgoblins as a general antagonist type don't.

                      The reason there aren't detailed guidelines in the CtL2 core is, yes, because we did not have room to port the entirety of the Horror rules from the CofD core. You can, if you want more guidelines, read the CofD core Horror creation rules.
                      Last edited by Meghan Fitzgerald; 02-06-2019, 07:51 PM.


                      Meghan Fitzgerald | Onyx Path freelance writer & developer
                      Changeling: The Lost 2e developer

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Meghan Fitzgerald View Post
                        You can, if you want more guidelines, read the CofD core Horror creation rules.
                        Thank you, Meghan.

                        I am not typically a storyteller and cannot fall back on years of practice, and so being closer to the role of a rote beginner it wasn't clear that the meaning of some text can be found, if you would allow me the wordplay, In Another Castle. I am glad that there is another castle, but it is slightly frustrating that there is no map.

                        Another nod to Firefly as well. I figured you were speaking from experience rather than authority--thus the "thank goodness we all have different experiences". No worries.
                        Last edited by Thenomain; 02-06-2019, 07:54 PM. Reason: (what's an "isno"?)

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Meghan Fitzgerald View Post
                          Besides that, in this particular case: hobgoblins and Huntsmen don't have souls, are not human, and mostly don't dream the way humans do, so saying they can enter the Gate of Ivory when they sleep doesn't make a ton of sense.
                          Hmmm... I figure I'll take this to mean that its implied you usually need something along the lines of a soul to enter dream form, and similarly, that becoming a hob is an absolute disaster for the soul of a human being?

                          Also, really glad to hear fetches can drain glamour from people, that ought to be a lot of fun.
                          Last edited by Deinos; 03-18-2019, 02:23 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
                            Mages and Beasts would gain no benefit from Lucid Dreamer as both splats can already lucid dream (more or less). Others would be dependent on whether the ST says they dream enough like a human for it to matter. Personally, I believe all the playable splats (except maybe Mummies) dream human enough for it to be an option unless superseded by an intrinsic ability of that splat.

                            For Expressive... I don't know. My gut reaction is Vampires, Prometheans, and Mummies (wtf is a Mummy doing hanging out in the Hedge long enough for this to apply, anyway?) probably don't qualify because they're not really alive to feel emotions, at least for Changeling harvesting purposes.
                            RE Mummies. That part really isn't the hindrance as Mummies are dead, alive AND undead(fun times). It's more that their slumbering time is preoccupied and the Judges don't like to share. The Deceived are definitely out though, in no small part as they are barred completely from other realms.

                            With the usual caveat that 2e is on it's way so things are subject to change.
                            Last edited by TyrannicalRabbit; 03-18-2019, 04:49 AM.


                            “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post

                              Hence "gut reaction" and "for Changeling harvesting purposes."

                              For Vampires, especially, it's because I feel the Beast makes their emotions too alien for a Changeling to harvest, but there is no canon answer for 2e.
                              We might get one in DE2 or Contagion Chronicles.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Meghan Fitzgerald View Post
                                Okay, to clarify.

                                If you want to give a hobgoblin Lucid Dreamer, go ahead! You're not breaking anything by doing so. The book is not written from the perspective that Merits are relevant to Horror-type NPCs because that's not what Merits are for; the reason the hobgoblin/Horror creation rules tell you that you can give hobgoblins Merits if you want is to keep track of story elements like Allies or Retainers or whatever. Another good example is the Omen Sensitivity Merit: an NPC's "player" is never going to need to ask the Storyteller for clues, so giving them the Merit's mechanics doesn't do anything--that was written for players. That doesn't mean an NPC can't be sensitive to omens, it just means using the Merit for that doesn't make much mechanical sense.

                                Besides that, in this particular case: hobgoblins and Huntsmen don't have souls, are not human, and mostly don't dream the way humans do, so saying they can enter the Gate of Ivory when they sleep doesn't make a ton of sense. If you want to make one specific hobgoblin who does something weird, cool! Do that. But hobgoblins as a general antagonist type don't.

                                The reason there aren't detailed guidelines in the CtL2 core is, yes, because we did not have room to port the entirety of the Horror rules from the CofD core. You can, if you want more guidelines, read the CofD core Horror creation rules.
                                What about former human and Changeling, ect... Hobgoblins, surely they still have souls?

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