Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

So got a question about 2e and attack rolls.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • So got a question about 2e and attack rolls.

    There are several things in 2e that mention that you get 3 instead of 5 for exceptional successes on attack rolls such as the Elemental Warrior fighting style and the Blood Pennon token, but as far as I'm aware nothing special happens on critting an attack roll except maybe getting something like Inspired, and that's at ST discretion, so what's the point? Is there something I'm not getting? If your ST doesn't feel like handing out beneficial conditions when you crit or letting you apply a tilt / condition to a foe, it's basically useless from what I can tell.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Icefyer View Post
    If your ST doesn't feel like handing out beneficial conditions when you crit or letting you apply a tilt / condition to a foe, it's basically useless from what I can tell.
    If your ST doesn't feel like following the basic rules of the game, pretty much anything you might do is useless.

    As it stands, getting an exceptional success grants you a beneficial Condition unless otherwise stated. Attack rolls aren't an exception to that, and Changeling in particular provides other circumstances where getting an exceptional success matters, namely for Hedgespinning and oneiromancy.


    Resident Lore-Hound
    Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
      If your ST doesn't feel like following the basic rules of the game, pretty much anything you might do is useless.

      As it stands, getting an exceptional success grants you a beneficial Condition unless otherwise stated. Attack rolls aren't an exception to that, and Changeling in particular provides other circumstances where getting an exceptional success matters, namely for Hedgespinning and oneiromancy.
      Ah. Because there are a bunch of people on one of the discord servers for CofD that seem to think it's useless because it doesn't explicitly state it. Where does it say all exceptional successes, including attack rolls, give a positive condition? I think the only one I'm aware of that kind of thing might give is Inspired.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Icefyer View Post
        Ah. Because there are a bunch of people on one of the discord servers for CofD that seem to think it's useless
        So, something I've noticed personally is that a lot of the people on the various Discords don't always have the best understanding of the rules. Reddit, likewise. As far as actual rules discussions go, I've mostly found these forums to be the most reliable.

        Originally posted by Icefyer View Post
        Where does it say all exceptional successes, including attack rolls, give a positive condition?
        Chronicles of Darkness, Page 75.
        Originally posted by Chronicles of Darkness
        Characters can gain Conditions as a result of many events or circumstances. A player can choose to bring a relevant Condition into play whenever he rolls an exceptional success.
        Note that it doesn't necessarily have to be a positive Condition affecting your character, it can also be a negative condition affecting an enemy, or a positive Condition affecting an ally, etc.

        You will note that this doesn't explicitly say 'including attack rolls' (because that's ridiculous). The statement is unqualified, and expecting them to specifically call out every potential qualifer for an unqualified statement would lead to 100 pages of 'and attack rolls, and Discipline rolls, and Empathy Rolls, and Strength rolls, and xyz'

        There is nothing special about attack rolls that disqualifies them from this rule.

        Comment


        • #5
          Discord seems a good spot to debate and talk real time but ya, anything that comes up there do take with a grain of salt and double check. Double check us too of course.

          Comment


          • #6
            I've always taken it as a given that the ST can decide the effect of what an exceptional success is for the most part. They give you some kind of advantage on top of the usual success. I usually gave conditions based on my interpretation of that, rather than expecting it to be RAW. This reward could be a condition or anything else they deem reasonable for the scene, even if it's just extra information or a flavorful bonus. I've seen one interpretation that you can choose to give extra damage on an exceptional attack roll, so if an ST decided they didn't want to apply conditions or tilts in the heat of the moment then I think that's a fine option.

            Comment


            • #7
              The ST, of course, has a variable amount of leeway table-to-table to adjust and change rules like this on the fly, or provide input into what is or isn't appropriate.

              RAW clearly states that the player can choose to bring a relevant condition into play whenever rolling an exceptional success.

              Comment


              • #8
                Alternatively (or additionally), there’s always the optional(?) rule in Hurt Locker that an exceptional success causes internal bleeding.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Additionally, Grappling rolls have a very specific exceptional effect, and it's quite powerful. That doesn't help answer what happens with other kinds of attacks, but exceptional at 3 is a huge boost to at least that subset of melee.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There seems to be something to this, actually.

                    I distinctly remembered it the way "Discord" and "reddit" seem to remember it, too. Not specifically as "attacks" but as, "actions that already scale with # of successes don't have extra effects for an exceptional success, since they already do more when you get more successes."
                    I investigated and found that on p. 131 of the World of Darkness book it says:

                    The significance of an exceptional success varies according to the kind of roll made and the circumstances ofthe task. For an instant action that happens in the spaceof one turn, such as the above driving example, the Storyteller typically decides what happens. Some extra benefit or reward is gained. If an exceptional success is gained in combat, the extra benefit is obvious. Each success rolled inflicts a point of damage on the target.
                    Now, I hear you say "But that's old rules, they no longer apply!". And I would agree, old rules certainly no longer apply where they differ from the current version; however, this is not a rule, but a clarification of a rule. (It does not say "except for attacks, where you do this instead", rather it explains how the default rule pans out with attacks) And that rule seems to be identical in the old and new version.

                    I think that would be enough to start a debate over the intent, but in order to really "know" that it is supposed to still work like this in 2nd edition, we'd need more concrete evidence, for instance an example of how to deal with a specific action that scales per success rolled. And indeed, we have exactly that!

                    In the new ruels examples for exceptional success it says on p. 72 (here of Chronicles of Darkness, since that is what I have at hand):

                    Success: Your character leaps a number of feet equal to the successes rolled, or a number of meters equal to the successes rolled divided by three.
                    Exceptional Success: Your character leaps an impressive distance. If successes gained exceed the amount required to make the jump, your character may attempt another instant action in the air (say, firing a shot) or upon landing (maybe running up to her Speed), at the Storyteller’s discretion.
                    There's some benefit written up here for "overshooting" the mark, but it is up to the Storyteller explicitly here.

                    So it seems clear that you're not supposed to give extra damage for additional successes AND a condition on top of that. At most you could argue that if you get an exceptional and overkill the target, it might do something. But to do that you'd need to go all the way over aggravated, since otherwise you don't have "extra" successes. I might allow a player something minor if they down an opponent with an exceptional success, regardless if it goes over agg or not, but nothing big. "Cutting down a troll in one strike" is exceptional enough!

                    The design philosophy for "exceptional success" seems to be that, because most rolls only need 1 success to go through, having lots of dice would feel pointless without such a system; however, there is less need for that when the roll is one of these few which already scale naturally. Certainly if every dot of damage was necesary to down the opponent, then there would not seem to be much "room" in the character's success for an additional effect.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Except, Exceptional successes are always supposed to give an additional advantage, and Tilts/Conditions give all the room needed for the character's successes to have additional effect rather than more damage.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Meghan Fitzgerald - you mentioned before that you wrote the violence subsystem for the CofD. Are you able to shed any light, here? Are the violence rules meant to be an exception to bringing Conditions into play for an exceptional success?
                        Last edited by lnodiv; 07-03-2019, 03:00 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
                          Meghan Fitzgerald - you mentioned before that you wrote the violence subsystem for the CofD. Are you able to shed any light, here? Are the violence rules meant to be an exception to bringing Conditions into play for an exceptional success?
                          RAW, no, they're not an exception. However!

                          a) At my table I tend to do it the 1e way just because it's simpler, and because an exceptional success on an attack is generally a sign that the fight is about to end anyway, whether someone goes down or starts negotiating surrender or whatever.

                          b) Among the writers/devs, we have an unofficial guideline that if we're writing a power that scales with successes rolled, it doesn't need a separate exceptional success benefit. It's not a rule, and you'll certainly find exceptions because we take it on a case by case basis. But it's something we tend to go by when there isn't a good reason to do otherwise.

                          So the answer is, no, the violence rules aren't by default meant to be an exception, but the ST may decide it just makes more sense to let damage speak for itself or use a Tilt instead or whatever depending on the situation. Also, don't forget that action-relevant Conditions effectively become Tilts in an action scene; so if, for instance, you roll an exceptional success on an attack and you want to inflict the Blind Condition, what you actually do is inflict the Blinded Tilt and then the ST decides whether it sticks around as a Condition afterward or not depending on how it was inflicted.


                          Meghan Fitzgerald | Onyx Path freelance writer & developer
                          Changeling: The Lost 2e developer

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Meghan Fitzgerald View Post
                            RAW, no, they're not an exception. However!

                            a) At my table I tend to do it the 1e way just because it's simpler, and because an exceptional success on an attack is generally a sign that the fight is about to end anyway, whether someone goes down or starts negotiating surrender or whatever.

                            b) Among the writers/devs, we have an unofficial guideline that if we're writing a power that scales with successes rolled, it doesn't need a separate exceptional success benefit. It's not a rule, and you'll certainly find exceptions because we take it on a case by case basis. But it's something we tend to go by when there isn't a good reason to do otherwise.

                            So the answer is, no, the violence rules aren't by default meant to be an exception, but the ST may decide it just makes more sense to let damage speak for itself or use a Tilt instead or whatever depending on the situation. Also, don't forget that action-relevant Conditions effectively become Tilts in an action scene; so if, for instance, you roll an exceptional success on an attack and you want to inflict the Blind Condition, what you actually do is inflict the Blinded Tilt and then the ST decides whether it sticks around as a Condition afterward or not depending on how it was inflicted.
                            Awesome, thanks for the clarity!

                            Generally speaking my table uses Tilts as replacements for Conditions in combat for exceptional successes (and they rarely turn into actual Conditions), so I'm glad to see that that's not breaking anything terribly.

                            Now that I think about it, at some point, some kind of in-depth guide on the use of Conditions/Tilts would be nice to see, I think (in some kind of general Storyteller's Guide, maybe?)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                              Except, Exceptional successes are always supposed to give an additional advantage, and Tilts/Conditions give all the room needed for the character's successes to have additional effect rather than more damage.
                              But you get an "additional" advantage. More damage. In normal rolls you have 1 advantage, which is the "success", and then you get "another" advantage at 5 successes. With damage, you get an additional advantage for every individual success, essentially. Just like in the jumping example, where if you roll an exceptional success but it is just good enough to make it, nothing "extra" is suggested to happen, which goes against your claim they're always supposed to, even if you disagree that extra damage already fills that function.

                              Anyway, I'm not against giving extra effects for 5 successes in a fight, but as Meghan points out, it seems rather superfluous after dealing that much damage most of the time, and will bog action down as people now have to figure out a tilt to suddenly apply.

                              Also, I did feel like playing Devil's Advocate, after the entire thread was basically patting ourselves on the back for being better than reddit/discord, but as you can clearly see, the issue is not so clear cut and none of that is warranted. :P

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X