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Most powerful contract?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Incendax View Post
    I disagree. Not because you are wrong (you are not) but because comparing one thing to another thing in a variety of hypothetical situations is enormous fun! Where you remember middle schoolers comparing who would win between two super heroes, now there are massive thriving communities of adults who ask those questions and love every second of it. Denying us this grand opportunity to navel gaze would be a travesty. =D
    The problem is that there is no hypothetical situation listed - it is just "what is the most powerful", no other qualifiers. Given each contract has its own uses but no universal cases we are effectively going into "my Contract beats yours because it is stronger".

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Taidragon View Post
      The problem is that there is no hypothetical situation listed - it is just "what is the most powerful", no other qualifiers. Given each contract has its own uses but no universal cases we are effectively going into "my Contract beats yours because it is stronger".
      Also, some of these reads rely on the kind of breathless decontextualized conclusion-jumping that doesn't stand up to casual scrutiny when you remember that these are supernatural powers for fairies. A corpse is not a substance, a hotline to Any Normal Minor Hobgoblin is not a made-to-order monster factory, and using mook-maker powers to build an army is generally a bad move on the simple strength of their only lasting a scene at most.

      Discrete Summons is a neat power, but its value as a storytelling tool vis-a-vis hobgoblins lies in the fact that you're directly incentivized to build transactional relationships with hobgoblins that you can call upon for fairly-compensated favors, not the hypothetical capacity to gin up a Lesser Trod Troll that works as a throwaway "minion." It's a Royal Contract.

      Summon the Lesser Servant lets you make a bit of the scenery or stuff you have at hand into a stripped-down no-frills Materialized Rank 1 Hedge ghost that can do what Pipes of the Beastcaller allows you to do en masse with animals; by applying the Loophole, it effectively allows you to use local materials and elements to pull off the classic fairy-tale Aided Animals Return The Favor scenario. It is not a staple of necromancy, nor does "ephemeral substances and discarded items," the ability to choose its shape, and the fact that its derived traits reference the Hedge ghost section indicate anything like the ability to make a mirror into a Size 7 meatshield that meaningfully benefits mirror-based Contracts. This is a Common Contract for a reason, and the reason is very definitely not "starting characters can Calvinball their way to omnicompetence with a minor flavorful trick that lets them call on their surroundings for assistance on par with a two-dot Retainer."

      Like, I realize I've been known in some circles as the No Fun Guy, but straining the bounds of common sense to get interpretations of the game's provided powers that far beyond their niche rather quickly turns into "I reproduced the Locate City Nuke in ChroD and seem to think this makes a meaningful statement about the power of a given ability in the game as understood by an average reader." That's not "holding back the player's creativity," that's "keeping in mind that people actually playing this game will have to deal with the consequences of any interpretations they allow through."


      Resident Lore-Hound
      Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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      • #18
        I will preface this with the statement that discussing Contracts that are your favourite or that you find cool is fine. It just doesn't match with the premise of the title and first post;

        Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
        What would guys say is the most powerful contract? Is it Riddle Kith? Discreete Summons? Stealing the Mirror's reflection? Dance of the Toys? Something Else?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
          Also, some of these reads rely on the kind of breathless decontextualized conclusion-jumping that doesn't stand up to casual scrutiny when you remember that these are supernatural powers for fairies. A corpse is not a substance, a hotline to Any Normal Minor Hobgoblin is not a made-to-order monster factory, and using mook-maker powers to build an army is generally a bad move on the simple strength of their only lasting a scene at most.

          Discrete Summons is a neat power, but its value as a storytelling tool vis-a-vis hobgoblins lies in the fact that you're directly incentivized to build transactional relationships with hobgoblins that you can call upon for fairly-compensated favors, not the hypothetical capacity to gin up a Lesser Trod Troll that works as a throwaway "minion." It's a Royal Contract.

          Summon the Lesser Servant lets you make a bit of the scenery or stuff you have at hand into a stripped-down no-frills Materialized Rank 1 Hedge ghost that can do what Pipes of the Beastcaller allows you to do en masse with animals; by applying the Loophole, it effectively allows you to use local materials and elements to pull off the classic fairy-tale Aided Animals Return The Favor scenario. It is not a staple of necromancy, nor does "ephemeral substances and discarded items," the ability to choose its shape, and the fact that its derived traits reference the Hedge ghost section indicate anything like the ability to make a mirror into a Size 7 meatshield that meaningfully benefits mirror-based Contracts. This is a Common Contract for a reason, and the reason is very definitely not "starting characters can Calvinball their way to omnicompetence with a minor flavorful trick that lets them call on their surroundings for assistance on par with a two-dot Retainer."

          Like, I realize I've been known in some circles as the No Fun Guy, but straining the bounds of common sense to get interpretations of the game's provided powers that far beyond their niche rather quickly turns into "I reproduced the Locate City Nuke in ChroD and seem to think this makes a meaningful statement about the power of a given ability in the game as understood by an average reader." That's not "holding back the player's creativity," that's "keeping in mind that people actually playing this game will have to deal with the consequences of any interpretations they allow through."
          Quoting Summon the Loyal Servant "The changeling chooses its shape, and a Size be-tween 1 and 7", and a corpse is the exact same substance as twigs and leaves, dead biological materials. substance definition.

          /ˈsəbstəns/

          noun

          1.

          a particular kind of matter with uniform properties.

          "a steel tube coated with a waxy substance"

          synonyms:material,*matter,*stuff,*medium,*fabric

          "an organic substance"
          I agree its the DM that designs the Hobgoblin summoned by Discreete Summons. But all Hobgoblins have basic abilites that make them useful.

          A scene is long enough for a major battle.

          A Loyal Servant made from a Mirror who still have a reflective surface, so I see no reason why any contract or other power that uses reflective surfaces wouldn't work on it. And Hedge Ghosts take bashing damage from mundane attacks, even stripped down basic hedge ghosts.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
            A Loyal Servant made from a Mirror who still have a reflective surface, so I see no reason why any contract or other power that uses reflective surfaces wouldn't work on it.
            When I say "meaningfully benefits mirror-based Contracts," I am referring to the fact that the Contracts in question pretty universally don't get anything out of being able to use them on a self-propelled actor that will fall inert at the end of the scene.

            And Hedge Ghosts take bashing damage from mundane attacks, even stripped down basic hedge ghosts.
            The product of Summon the Loyal Servant is not a Hedge Ghost. It has set Power, Finesse, and Resistance Attributes which derive to other Advantages like Speed, Corpus, etc in the same fashion that a Hedge Ghost's do. The Contract doesn't specify that it lacks the four Common Powers, either, but the fact that it's an animate pile of set dressing similarly indicates to me that a Common Contract is not creating a Hedge Ghost just because their mechanics happen to conveniently provide means of determining Advantages for simplified Traits on things that aren't Dream Forms.


            Resident Lore-Hound
            Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
              When I say "meaningfully benefits mirror-based Contracts," I am referring to the fact that the Contracts in question pretty universally don't get anything out of being able to use them on a self-propelled actor that will fall inert at the end of the scene.

              The product of Summon the Loyal Servant is not a Hedge Ghost. It has set Power, Finesse, and Resistance Attributes which derive to other Advantages like Speed, Corpus, etc in the same fashion that a Hedge Ghost's do. The Contract doesn't specify that it lacks the four Common Powers, either, but the fact that it's an animate pile of set dressing similarly indicates to me that a Common Contract is not creating a Hedge Ghost just because their mechanics happen to conveniently provide means of determining Advantages for simplified Traits on things that aren't Dream Forms.
              Honestly it's not entirely clear how to handle if it has such abilities, but in the case of taking mundane damage as bashing there is another line that I think impacts this.

              "The servitor has natural advantages granted by its makeup; for example, a fire servitor cannot be burnt"

              If you ask yourself why emphereal brings, not just hedge ghosts, take only bashing damage not lethal from mundane attacks, it's because they have no vital organs.

              And the Loyal Servant is still functional an Empereal being, abit manifested. So I'd argue it's a natural advantage of it's makeup. Heck even Vampires only take bashing damage from mudane weapons for the same reason, no vital, living organs.

              Heck you can even use the natural advantages arguement that any Loyal Servant not made of matter should be completely immune to most Mundane attacks period, like a Loyal Servant made up of Darkness should take no damage from a bullet, because if you shoot a bullet at regular darkness, it's uneffected. But because it has a Corpus, I'm assuming some physicality is granted to these beings.
              Last edited by Omegaphallic; 07-30-2019, 04:43 AM.

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