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  • Omegaphallic
    started a topic Most powerful contract?

    Most powerful contract?

    What would guys say is the most powerful contract? Is it Riddle Kith? Discreete Summons? Stealing the Mirror's reflection? Dance of the Toys? Something Else?

  • Omegaphallic
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    When I say "meaningfully benefits mirror-based Contracts," I am referring to the fact that the Contracts in question pretty universally don't get anything out of being able to use them on a self-propelled actor that will fall inert at the end of the scene.

    The product of Summon the Loyal Servant is not a Hedge Ghost. It has set Power, Finesse, and Resistance Attributes which derive to other Advantages like Speed, Corpus, etc in the same fashion that a Hedge Ghost's do. The Contract doesn't specify that it lacks the four Common Powers, either, but the fact that it's an animate pile of set dressing similarly indicates to me that a Common Contract is not creating a Hedge Ghost just because their mechanics happen to conveniently provide means of determining Advantages for simplified Traits on things that aren't Dream Forms.
    Honestly it's not entirely clear how to handle if it has such abilities, but in the case of taking mundane damage as bashing there is another line that I think impacts this.

    "The servitor has natural advantages granted by its makeup; for example, a fire servitor cannot be burnt"

    If you ask yourself why emphereal brings, not just hedge ghosts, take only bashing damage not lethal from mundane attacks, it's because they have no vital organs.

    And the Loyal Servant is still functional an Empereal being, abit manifested. So I'd argue it's a natural advantage of it's makeup. Heck even Vampires only take bashing damage from mudane weapons for the same reason, no vital, living organs.

    Heck you can even use the natural advantages arguement that any Loyal Servant not made of matter should be completely immune to most Mundane attacks period, like a Loyal Servant made up of Darkness should take no damage from a bullet, because if you shoot a bullet at regular darkness, it's uneffected. But because it has a Corpus, I'm assuming some physicality is granted to these beings.
    Last edited by Omegaphallic; 07-30-2019, 04:43 AM.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
    A Loyal Servant made from a Mirror who still have a reflective surface, so I see no reason why any contract or other power that uses reflective surfaces wouldn't work on it.
    When I say "meaningfully benefits mirror-based Contracts," I am referring to the fact that the Contracts in question pretty universally don't get anything out of being able to use them on a self-propelled actor that will fall inert at the end of the scene.

    And Hedge Ghosts take bashing damage from mundane attacks, even stripped down basic hedge ghosts.
    The product of Summon the Loyal Servant is not a Hedge Ghost. It has set Power, Finesse, and Resistance Attributes which derive to other Advantages like Speed, Corpus, etc in the same fashion that a Hedge Ghost's do. The Contract doesn't specify that it lacks the four Common Powers, either, but the fact that it's an animate pile of set dressing similarly indicates to me that a Common Contract is not creating a Hedge Ghost just because their mechanics happen to conveniently provide means of determining Advantages for simplified Traits on things that aren't Dream Forms.

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  • Omegaphallic
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    Also, some of these reads rely on the kind of breathless decontextualized conclusion-jumping that doesn't stand up to casual scrutiny when you remember that these are supernatural powers for fairies. A corpse is not a substance, a hotline to Any Normal Minor Hobgoblin is not a made-to-order monster factory, and using mook-maker powers to build an army is generally a bad move on the simple strength of their only lasting a scene at most.

    Discrete Summons is a neat power, but its value as a storytelling tool vis-a-vis hobgoblins lies in the fact that you're directly incentivized to build transactional relationships with hobgoblins that you can call upon for fairly-compensated favors, not the hypothetical capacity to gin up a Lesser Trod Troll that works as a throwaway "minion." It's a Royal Contract.

    Summon the Lesser Servant lets you make a bit of the scenery or stuff you have at hand into a stripped-down no-frills Materialized Rank 1 Hedge ghost that can do what Pipes of the Beastcaller allows you to do en masse with animals; by applying the Loophole, it effectively allows you to use local materials and elements to pull off the classic fairy-tale Aided Animals Return The Favor scenario. It is not a staple of necromancy, nor does "ephemeral substances and discarded items," the ability to choose its shape, and the fact that its derived traits reference the Hedge ghost section indicate anything like the ability to make a mirror into a Size 7 meatshield that meaningfully benefits mirror-based Contracts. This is a Common Contract for a reason, and the reason is very definitely not "starting characters can Calvinball their way to omnicompetence with a minor flavorful trick that lets them call on their surroundings for assistance on par with a two-dot Retainer."

    Like, I realize I've been known in some circles as the No Fun Guy, but straining the bounds of common sense to get interpretations of the game's provided powers that far beyond their niche rather quickly turns into "I reproduced the Locate City Nuke in ChroD and seem to think this makes a meaningful statement about the power of a given ability in the game as understood by an average reader." That's not "holding back the player's creativity," that's "keeping in mind that people actually playing this game will have to deal with the consequences of any interpretations they allow through."
    Quoting Summon the Loyal Servant "The changeling chooses its shape, and a Size be-tween 1 and 7", and a corpse is the exact same substance as twigs and leaves, dead biological materials. substance definition.

    /ˈsəbstəns/

    noun

    1.

    a particular kind of matter with uniform properties.

    "a steel tube coated with a waxy substance"

    synonyms:material,*matter,*stuff,*medium,*fabric

    "an organic substance"
    I agree its the DM that designs the Hobgoblin summoned by Discreete Summons. But all Hobgoblins have basic abilites that make them useful.

    A scene is long enough for a major battle.

    A Loyal Servant made from a Mirror who still have a reflective surface, so I see no reason why any contract or other power that uses reflective surfaces wouldn't work on it. And Hedge Ghosts take bashing damage from mundane attacks, even stripped down basic hedge ghosts.

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  • Taidragon
    replied
    I will preface this with the statement that discussing Contracts that are your favourite or that you find cool is fine. It just doesn't match with the premise of the title and first post;

    Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
    What would guys say is the most powerful contract? Is it Riddle Kith? Discreete Summons? Stealing the Mirror's reflection? Dance of the Toys? Something Else?

    Leave a comment:


  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Taidragon View Post
    The problem is that there is no hypothetical situation listed - it is just "what is the most powerful", no other qualifiers. Given each contract has its own uses but no universal cases we are effectively going into "my Contract beats yours because it is stronger".
    Also, some of these reads rely on the kind of breathless decontextualized conclusion-jumping that doesn't stand up to casual scrutiny when you remember that these are supernatural powers for fairies. A corpse is not a substance, a hotline to Any Normal Minor Hobgoblin is not a made-to-order monster factory, and using mook-maker powers to build an army is generally a bad move on the simple strength of their only lasting a scene at most.

    Discrete Summons is a neat power, but its value as a storytelling tool vis-a-vis hobgoblins lies in the fact that you're directly incentivized to build transactional relationships with hobgoblins that you can call upon for fairly-compensated favors, not the hypothetical capacity to gin up a Lesser Trod Troll that works as a throwaway "minion." It's a Royal Contract.

    Summon the Lesser Servant lets you make a bit of the scenery or stuff you have at hand into a stripped-down no-frills Materialized Rank 1 Hedge ghost that can do what Pipes of the Beastcaller allows you to do en masse with animals; by applying the Loophole, it effectively allows you to use local materials and elements to pull off the classic fairy-tale Aided Animals Return The Favor scenario. It is not a staple of necromancy, nor does "ephemeral substances and discarded items," the ability to choose its shape, and the fact that its derived traits reference the Hedge ghost section indicate anything like the ability to make a mirror into a Size 7 meatshield that meaningfully benefits mirror-based Contracts. This is a Common Contract for a reason, and the reason is very definitely not "starting characters can Calvinball their way to omnicompetence with a minor flavorful trick that lets them call on their surroundings for assistance on par with a two-dot Retainer."

    Like, I realize I've been known in some circles as the No Fun Guy, but straining the bounds of common sense to get interpretations of the game's provided powers that far beyond their niche rather quickly turns into "I reproduced the Locate City Nuke in ChroD and seem to think this makes a meaningful statement about the power of a given ability in the game as understood by an average reader." That's not "holding back the player's creativity," that's "keeping in mind that people actually playing this game will have to deal with the consequences of any interpretations they allow through."

    Leave a comment:


  • Taidragon
    replied
    Originally posted by Incendax View Post
    I disagree. Not because you are wrong (you are not) but because comparing one thing to another thing in a variety of hypothetical situations is enormous fun! Where you remember middle schoolers comparing who would win between two super heroes, now there are massive thriving communities of adults who ask those questions and love every second of it. Denying us this grand opportunity to navel gaze would be a travesty. =D
    The problem is that there is no hypothetical situation listed - it is just "what is the most powerful", no other qualifiers. Given each contract has its own uses but no universal cases we are effectively going into "my Contract beats yours because it is stronger".

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  • Incendax
    replied
    Originally posted by Falcon777 View Post
    Sorry, but this thread reminds me of those games people would play in middle school where they would compare superheros from Marvel and DC and ask who would win. It's not a really useful question.
    I disagree. Not because you are wrong (you are not) but because comparing one thing to another thing in a variety of hypothetical situations is enormous fun! Where you remember middle schoolers comparing who would win between two super heroes, now there are massive thriving communities of adults who ask those questions and love every second of it. Denying us this grand opportunity to navel gaze would be a travesty. =D
    Last edited by Incendax; 07-23-2019, 10:36 PM.

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  • Omegaphallic
    replied
    Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    If there’s anything you can’t do with Tatterdamalion’s Workshop it’s because you haven’t watched enough MacGuyver.
    Excellent choice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Omegaphallic
    replied
    Originally posted by Unahim View Post
    I think the vast majority of people already know that there is no "best", and the explanations of why there isn't one are mostly kicking in an open door. Just have fun with it!

    One that surprised me with how good it can be is Fae Cunning. At first I discounted it slightly due to it not really improving your defense per se (except agaisnt firearms), which seemed odd for something that the fluff text described as a "defensive" Contract; however, I quickly came around to it, realizing that its does actually increase defense by allowing you to go on a full defensive while still getting rid of threats. It'sn ow one of my favourites for combat, and that for a Common Contract!
    Thank you for understanding what I was going for.

    For me Loyal Servant is pretty powerful, you can make a servant out of almost anything. Make one out of corpse and you can reshape it into some horrific or beautiful stuff, or hid a murder by turning the victim into one of these and have it walk in front of a train. Make one out of Helium and it can fly, make of out of darkness and you have a spy, make one of out mirrors and it combos with contracts that work with mirrors, need a mobile power supply make one out of electicity (if you have a Promeathan ally it can heal them at will), fighting Vampires, make one out of Sunlight, fighting Werewolves make one out of Silver, need someone to set fires, make one out of fire, worried about being shot, make one out of steel and use the Elemental bonus, and so many other uses.

    Given you can make them into any shape, you can also have them take on the form of a tool or weapon, shape one into a sword for example, although it wouldn't grant a tool bonus.

    Also with enough glamour you can build an army very rapidly, a really, really big one.

    And it's a common contract so anyone can start with it, even Fae Touched, making them fairly powerful right out the door, with diverse uses, it's not niche at all, it's only held back by the players creativity.

    Also as ephemereal creatures, mundane weapons like guns only deal bashing damage to it.

    Another powerful one is discreete summons, you can summon any size 1 tool (or bigger if you drop the mask) or a powerful hobgoblin Minion. It gets better if you can customize the minion. If you drop the Mask it gets even better. Another one held back only by the players creativity.
    Last edited by Omegaphallic; 07-23-2019, 12:52 PM.

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  • Unahim
    replied
    I think the vast majority of people already know that there is no "best", and the explanations of why there isn't one are mostly kicking in an open door. Just have fun with it!

    One that surprised me with how good it can be is Fae Cunning. At first I discounted it slightly due to it not really improving your defense per se (except agaisnt firearms), which seemed odd for something that the fluff text described as a "defensive" Contract; however, I quickly came around to it, realizing that its does actually increase defense by allowing you to go on a full defensive while still getting rid of threats. It'sn ow one of my favourites for combat, and that for a Common Contract!

    Leave a comment:


  • Sith_Happens
    replied
    If there’s anything you can’t do with Tatterdamalion’s Workshop it’s because you haven’t watched enough MacGuyver.

    Leave a comment:


  • Taidragon
    replied
    Originally posted by Falcon777 View Post
    Sorry, but this thread reminds me of those games people would play in middle school where they would compare superheros from Marvel and DC and ask who would win. It's not a really useful question. The world is more complex than "which one is the most powerful?". You have to ask yourself what your intention is with using any given contract. Is it to kill someone? Hide from someone? Create something out of nothing? Make someone feel a particular emotion? Find something that is hidden? Flee from a raging enemy?

    The magic available via contracts is fairly widespread to the point that a character could be called a sorcerer (or even a wizard) for all the magic they would know if they invest a large amount of xp in contracts. If you need to hide from someone but decide to use an elemental contract to just kill them then the consequences are going to be drastically different (which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just means the story is a different one). Is the elemental contract more powerful? It certainly gives you another option of how to deal with a given issue, but it doesn't help you to hide when that elemental contract isn't capable of destroying something/someone. Which contract is more powerful then?

    Do you see what I mean? A much more useful set of questions when asking about the strength of a given contract is to ask yourself what you are trying to accomplish as a character and as a player. If you want more drama in the story as a player then sometimes being subtle isn't going to help. However, if you've made the character to be someone that would want to hide from a given problem then subtlety can be a great tool. And these two questions (what do I want as a player, what do I want as a character) obviously don't just have to be about subtlety and drama. They can be asked about ANY situation. That then allows you to feel powerful no matter what contract your character is calling upon.
    This is what I was trying to get at with my earlier post, but you have gone into far better detail.

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  • TyrannicalRabbit
    replied
    Originally posted by Falcon777 View Post
    Sorry, but this thread reminds me of those games people would play in middle school where they would compare superheros from Marvel and DC and ask who would win. It's not a really useful question. The world is more complex than "which one is the most powerful?". You have to ask yourself what your intention is with using any given contract. Is it to kill someone? Hide from someone? Create something out of nothing? Make someone feel a particular emotion? Find something that is hidden? Flee from a raging enemy?

    The magic available via contracts is fairly widespread to the point that a character could be called a sorcerer (or even a wizard) for all the magic they would know if they invest a large amount of xp in contracts. If you need to hide from someone but decide to use an elemental contract to just kill them then the consequences are going to be drastically different (which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just means the story is a different one). Is the elemental contract more powerful? It certainly gives you another option of how to deal with a given issue, but it doesn't help you to hide when that elemental contract isn't capable of destroying something/someone. Which contract is more powerful then?

    Do you see what I mean? A much more useful set of questions when asking about the strength of a given contract is to ask yourself what you are trying to accomplish as a character and as a player. If you want more drama in the story as a player then sometimes being subtle isn't going to help. However, if you've made the character to be someone that would want to hide from a given problem then subtlety can be a great tool. And these two questions (what do I want as a player, what do I want as a character) obviously don't just have to be about subtlety and drama. They can be asked about ANY situation. That then allows you to feel powerful no matter what contract your character is calling upon.
    I'd say I'm smashing the like button but on mobile it only works some of the time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Falcon777
    replied
    Sorry, but this thread reminds me of those games people would play in middle school where they would compare superheros from Marvel and DC and ask who would win. It's not a really useful question. The world is more complex than "which one is the most powerful?". You have to ask yourself what your intention is with using any given contract. Is it to kill someone? Hide from someone? Create something out of nothing? Make someone feel a particular emotion? Find something that is hidden? Flee from a raging enemy?

    The magic available via contracts is fairly widespread to the point that a character could be called a sorcerer (or even a wizard) for all the magic they would know if they invest a large amount of xp in contracts. If you need to hide from someone but decide to use an elemental contract to just kill them then the consequences are going to be drastically different (which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just means the story is a different one). Is the elemental contract more powerful? It certainly gives you another option of how to deal with a given issue, but it doesn't help you to hide when that elemental contract isn't capable of destroying something/someone. Which contract is more powerful then?

    Do you see what I mean? A much more useful set of questions when asking about the strength of a given contract is to ask yourself what you are trying to accomplish as a character and as a player. If you want more drama in the story as a player then sometimes being subtle isn't going to help. However, if you've made the character to be someone that would want to hide from a given problem then subtlety can be a great tool. And these two questions (what do I want as a player, what do I want as a character) obviously don't just have to be about subtlety and drama. They can be asked about ANY situation. That then allows you to feel powerful no matter what contract your character is calling upon.

    Leave a comment:

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