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I wish CtL allowed you to confront your Keeper.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cielle View Post
    Maybe not, but saving the world was never the target here. It’s saving yourself that I’m after.
    Ignoring the rest of the Missing the Point going on here and addressing this:

    And that's the point. You have the wrong focus.

    Some wacko gets you into a bad car crash. You get traumatized by the event.

    You can

    A) Take out that one asshole, but that mentality leads you to realize that there are more bad drivers on the road who are out to just run you off, and then go to take them on, until you either fail in your crusade to kill all bad drivers, or become the sort of insane mass murderer who pulls that off,

    OR

    B) you can learn to trust yourself on the road, learn to identify who's being a wacko and who's just having an off day, learn how to handle your car when the wackos come and otherwise learn to enjoy the road again, and otherwise contribute to a saner, safer environment-sometimes by getting wackos arrested, mostly by learning to be a good and conscientious driver yourself.

    Within the major context of "saving yourself", fighting assholes is never going to help you as much creating your safe environment and creating your most assured self, and honestly there comes a point in time where fighting assholes makes you the asshole. You don't want to fight the assholes, you want to be confident that you can take care of yourself when the assholes come. A lot of that comes from learning self-confidence and the skills to back it up. A lot of it also comes from creating your own safe worlds, and which also extends and makes other people safer and invites unsafe elements to become safe.

    Changeling, and life in general, is not going to reward you for simple aggression. By all means, punch the monsters as they come, but if your main lament is that you feel like you need to kill the forces that made you what you are because you are otherwise missing something for your own security, what you're missing is the fundamental nature of security to begin with.

    You get hurt, you learn how to handle hurt, not how to hurt back in kind. This is elementary school shit.


    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
    Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by GibberingEloquence View Post
      But I feel compelled to ask: your PC believes they have killed their Keeper. Now what? Does that give you the closure you yearned for?
      I think this question holds more significance to you than it does to me. What happens afterward is that you continue to live, and they don't. That's of concrete benefit.

      How you feel about it is your decision.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post

        Ignoring the rest of the Missing the Point going on here and addressing this:

        And that's the point. You have the wrong focus.

        ...

        Changeling, and life in general, is not going to reward you for simple aggression. By all means, punch the monsters as they come, but if your main lament is that you feel like you need to kill the forces that made you what you are because you are otherwise missing something for your own security, what you're missing is the fundamental nature of security to begin with.

        You get hurt, you learn how to handle hurt, not how to hurt back in kind. This is elementary school shit.
        As I have said several times, exerting control is not particularly about killing and violence. I have used that framing to streamline communication, since it's what you insist on talking about and it makes sense within the context of the game world. But you keep falling back on that framing to the exclusion of everything else and insisting that alone is what I'm interested in. That's your failure of imagination, not mine.

        Clearly we've had much different life experiences. I am happy with who I am, and whatever you think of them, life has indeed rewarded me well for my choices of how to handle conflict and hardship. I assume different things have worked for you, but that does not give you the right to insult mine this way.

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        • #19
          It has been possible to kill Fae since the first book. Not easy, no, but always possible. They have limits, they have weaknesses. The supplements introduced many more tools to aid in that endeavor, but cold iron was always there. Grandfather Thunder supposedly beat one to death with a hammer. That's in the core. Equinox Road in particular goes into a lot more detail about how to run a face to face confrontation.

          Unless the Keeper is sending minions after you on a regular basis though, that really is a high risk/uncertain reward path to take. I think there's value in stories about trying to cope with trauma that way, but they aren't always happy ones. That's what Ahab's doomed quest for his White Whale is. That's what's at the heart of Batman stories, him facing the man with the gun in the alley, only this time he has a bullet proof suit and years of martial arts training and that man will have nightmares of him. Maybe, just maybe, if he gets it right this time, gets it right enough times, it will stop happening, right? Right?

          Playing an Ahab can be fun. My first Changeling was one of those. His whole motley had escaped the same Keeper, and She still had his brother. So he learned his one freebie Spring Contract and used it in place of regular sleep and food. Spent all his free time in Autumn's Library. Went to a Goblin Market and he and his Motley mates bought some costly goblin contracts. And then they went about disrupting Her plans and killing Her minions until She was enraged enough to personally leave Arcadia to find them in the Hedge. And when She did She made the mistake of starting a speech about how doomed they were, and the trap was sprung. Blood Binding (Rites of Spring 116) removed all Her supernatural protections and reduced Her Glamour to 0. Fortune's Swift Blessing (RoS 117) ensured that every attack was an exceptional success. And that was that, our mostly Wyrd 3 Motley killed a very powerful Keeper and all it took was several permanent dots of willpower and a lot of suicidal courage and even more luck.

          The thing is, as cool as that was it wasn't worth it. It wasn't a true death, although it did weaken Her enough for a rival Fae to steal a Title or two and thereby prevent Her from directly pursuing immediate retribution. The Changelings eventually had to fake their own deaths (thanks, Winter) to escape the never ending wave of Huntsmen that followed (She was never going to face them in person outside of Arcadia again after that). And I think those ongoing complications are a much richer narrative than a simple GG happy ending would have been.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Cielle View Post
            I think this question holds more significance to you than it does to me. What happens afterward is that you continue to live, and they don't. That's of concrete benefit.

            How you feel about it is your decision.
            I have zero idea of how I am supposed to interpret this post, it's so vague.

            And the thread seems to be turning to personal attacks, so I'll do my best to leave it be.

            At the end of the day, this is a make-believe game. What we do with it shouldn't be grounds to assume stuff about the other person.

            Peace out.


            Let Him Speak.

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            • #21
              I still cant see how the game prevents you from confronting your keeper. Or true fae in general or the whole kidnap people to make more changeling.


              Currently running: Scion 2nd Edition. Les Légendes Currently playing: Being a dad for a 2year old daughter and a newborn son.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Maitrecorbo View Post
                I still cant see how the game prevents you from confronting your keeper. Or true fae in general or the whole kidnap people to make more changeling.
                It doesn't, you totally can. Hell, you can play a chronicle where-in you stop the Gentry once and for all, game allows for it.

                At this point, the argument is the point and purpose of fighting the True Fae and what that means for the overarching meaning of the game.


                Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                  It doesn't, you totally can. Hell, you can play a chronicle where-in you stop the Gentry once and for all, game allows for it.

                  At this point, the argument is the point and purpose of fighting the True Fae and what that means for the overarching meaning of the game.
                  Ah, gotcha.
                  My apologies then.
                  Sometimes i can be rather slow in the uptake haha.


                  Currently running: Scion 2nd Edition. Les Légendes Currently playing: Being a dad for a 2year old daughter and a newborn son.

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                  • #24
                    To be a bit more charitable about it, if you just have 1e core, there are minimal tools for it besides, "get lucky and take them on in the physical world once you have a lot of XP." Even with the Banished as a hint of where things would go, there's not really any discussion of how to get your Keeper Banished so you're on a better footing against them.

                    The supplements built out the tools for running confrontations with Keepers significantly, and 2e made sure to maintain that into its core.

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                    • #25
                      I mean, if you want to be a a real dick about it, Call the Hunt and a home made bomb full of iron scrap next to the Hedge Gate isn't likely to get your Keeper specifically but it will almost certainly take out whatever random Fae answers the call. And blowing up random Fae as a fresh out of the Hedge Changeling can only ever lead to good consequences, naturally. Probably you'll get a medal. Yeah.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by HelmsDerp View Post
                        I mean, if you want to be a a real dick about it, Call the Hunt and a home made bomb full of iron scrap next to the Hedge Gate isn't likely to get your Keeper specifically but it will almost certainly take out whatever random Fae answers the call. And blowing up random Fae as a fresh out of the Hedge Changeling can only ever lead to good consequences, naturally. Probably you'll get a medal. Yeah.
                        I'd be cheeky and note that the heat of an explosion stripped the iron of it's cold properties, if players tries to pull this one on me.

                        But, back to the topic at hand... @op: how do you presume to confront your keeper directly without it turning into a physical conflict whereas the stakes include but are not limited to said Keeper dragging you screaming back into a durance?

                        (I'll pretend this won't be goal-post shifted like OP has been doing for this entire thread.)

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                        • #27
                          Or to be blunt:

                          At this point, I would say that Changeling: the Lost by RAW isn't your cup of tea, and to just move on from there to other games.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                            Or to be blunt:

                            At this point, I would say that Changeling: the Lost by RAW isn't your cup of tea, and to just move on from there to other games.
                            RAW sounds like it will work fine. A few people were helpful enough to say “hey, here’s a couple sourcebooks that seem like they might help with what you’re after.”

                            That’s all I really needed. I’m certainly not going to stop doing anything with Changeling.
                            Last edited by Cielle; 08-02-2019, 07:20 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Both editions core rulebooks have rules on directly fighting the Kindly Ones.


                              Genius templates (for Demon: the Descent)

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cielle View Post

                                RAW sounds like it will work fine. A few people were helpful enough to say “hey, here’s a couple sourcebooks that seem like they might help with what you’re after.”

                                That’s all I really needed. I’m certainly not going to stop doing anything with Changeling.
                                Is there a particular reason you didn't just post:

                                "I only have CtL 1e, and I'd like to know more about using Keepers as antagonists as more than just things for the players to run and hide from. Are there any resources for this?"

                                Because if all you needed was recommendations to pick up Autumn Nightmares, Equinox Road, and CtL 2e... that would have gotten there much more directly.

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