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  • #31
    Originally posted by Malus View Post

    I'd be cheeky and note that the heat of an explosion stripped the iron of it's cold properties, if players tries to pull this one on me.
    That doesn't really matter though. By first edition rules (and second, for that matter) hand forged iron does aggravated, but any relatively pure iron whether heated or not will still ignore Fae contracts and armor and deal full normal damage.

    Bludgeoning a Fae to death with a wrought iron fence post or a cast iron skillet has always been at least theoretically possible within Changeling's framework, it's just that being in the position to do so requires pretty extraordinary circumstances.

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    • #32
      I co-developed the second edition.

      I'm a trauma survivor. Even in some kind of consequences-free fantasy, I don't think that physically defeating, much less killing, the people responsible for my trauma would make me feel better.

      Hurt them back? What does that get me? If I live in a world of goblins and shadows that look at me funny and an alarm clock that is consistently six minutes wrong in either direction and makes me late for work everyday... what good does it do me to punch He Who Lives in Cheetahs' Laughter and Strong Drink in the face?

      Is that going to make me feel a single drop better?

      We can go way fictional. Finding Joe Chill is always the least satisfying Batman story. Sometimes it needs to be told, but it's never a triumph. It's a lukewarm towelette on Bruce's bleeding wound.

      But, do you want to kill a faerie? Very much, in your deepest heart?

      There are rules for that. You maneuver around their slimy protections and then you simply annihilate them the way you would anyone else. And the rules are there because sometimes it needs to be done. Because you have to take the bigger monster out to protect people. Because those who once could have rendered more elegant justice to the Gentry, the true Nobles who came before them, just aren't around.

      So you strip the finely-dressed beast of its titles and finery, or you blow it straight to hell with an iron IED. Or you don't quite kill it. You trick it into swearing eternal companionship to something that exists only in a mirror. The trick to beating the Gentry by their own rules is to remember that their own rules are self-serving bullshit invented to please their egos -- so manipulate those egos and you can destroy them.

      Or put them in the black hole cluster at the center of the Milky Way. This is admittedly a bit out of genre, but you'd be really surprised what gravity can crush.

      And, of course, iron-spiked baseball bats and an army of Summers.

      The paths to revenge are many. Some beckon brightly, others already stink of blood spilled and spoiled.

      There are 9 billion ways to kill one of the Gentry. And 9 to slay all of them, all at once, in a single stroke.

      ---

      You really think that'll help with the alarm clock, though? Six fucking minutes.
      Last edited by Rose Bailey; 08-08-2019, 04:50 PM.


      Cavaliers of Mars Creator

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Rose Bailey View Post
        He Who Lives in Cheetahs' Laughter and Strong Drink
        Who takes the form of a gremlin and enjoys playing games?

        those who once could have rendered more elegant justice to the Gentry, the true Nobles who came before them
        You had my curiosity, but now you have my attention.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
          You had my curiosity, but now you have my attention.
          Originally posted by Merriam-Webster
          Definition of gentry


          b: a class whose members are entitled to bear a coat of arms though not of noble rankespecially : wealthy landowners having such status


          We know from the core that the Gentry weren't the first inhabitants of Arcadia, yet they style themselves its lords and majesties. The Gentry colonized Arcadia, where they did something with the inhabitants and dug the sleeping Huntsmen up and stole their hearts.

          They inflate their reputations and powers, always. They are masters of spin, and they get away with it by being nigh-immortal and being able to not only turn you into a toad but give you the destiny of one.

          If they weren't the true nobility of their kind, if there were graceful wicked warlords from whom their titles and lands have been bought or swindled...

          ...well, that wouldn't be the sort of thing they'd advertise, would it? But they also would never be able to forget, would they?


          Cavaliers of Mars Creator

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Rose Bailey View Post
            I co-developed the second edition.

            I'm a trauma survivor. Even in some kind of consequences-free fantasy, I don't think that physically defeating, much less killing, the people responsible for my trauma would make me feel better.

            Hurt them back? What does that get me? If I live in a world of goblins and shadows that look at me funny and an alarm clock that is consistently six minutes wrong in either direction and makes me late for work everyday... what good does it do me to punch He Who Lives in Cheetahs' Laughter and Strong Drink in the face?

            Is that going to make me feel a single drop better?

            We can go way fictional. Finding Joe Chill is always the least satisfying Batman story. Sometimes it needs to be told, but it's never a triumph. It's a lukewarm towelette on Bruce's bleeding wound.

            ...

            You really think that'll help with the alarm clock, though? Six fucking minutes.
            I guess this is a cultural difference that can’t be reconciled.

            One of the most popular stories my people retell is that of Eichmann’s capture and execution. The whole affair didn’t undo anything the Nazis had done, didn’t save any additional lives, didn’t extract any remorse or admission of wrongdoing from Eichmann before his death. And it carried some costs to get done.

            Yet we do view it as a triumph, and it did (and does) make people feel better. Eichmann’s sins no longer went unpunished; the goal was complete.

            Where I’m from, that’s both a satisfying story and an aspirational ideal. Many of our cultural heroes were rescued from death camps, only to then go after the people who put them there. It’s a powerful image, and it’s one that informs our own ideals.

            As I said, I think this is irreconcilable. I don’t expect you to take the same lessons from our history. But that might illustrate where I’m coming from, and why there’s more to it than “punching someone in the face”.
            Last edited by Cielle; 08-12-2019, 05:17 AM.

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            • #36
              I'm not sure if you're still reading my posts... but I'll go for it anyway.

              I'm a Jew. Grandson of four Holocaust refugees. I've spent time living in Israel. I have extended family that worked in Shin Bet while the Nazi Hunters were active. I was raised to see those people as heroes as much as anyone. I believe they were doing the right thing, and the Nazi's they targeted deserved to be brought to justice.

              So, this is not cultural barrier for me.

              The problem is that the Gentry aren't Nazis. They're not human. They're not evil for sacrificing their personal human decency in the name of a country of a cause. They didn't slaughter millions with a pen. It's an insult to those heroes to compare the trauma of the True Fae, with the evil of the Nazis. The Nazis were humans, that deserved human justice for their human crimes. Capturing and putting men like Eichmann or Stangl on trial were triumph for us because it meant justice won over baser, easier, social pressures.

              You can't get that with the Gentry. They're not human. No trial means anything to them. No verdict means anything to their victims. There's no more justice in conflict with them than their is in filling a tank with ocean water and putting it on trial for the deaths caused by a tidal wave. Having the water whipped doesn't make you a cultural hero. As you yourself said, they're a threat that doesn't simply go away. There aren't more Eichmanns to bring to court. The original Nazis are dead. Some go what they deserved, and some avoided justice in this life. There aren't any more Nazi hunters because they got all the Nazis there were to get; allowing a finality. That's never going to be the case for the Gentry. There's no "one more Gentry and the Keepers are all brought to justice." There's never going to be the cultural catharsis of getting to say that those evil men are gone for good.

              But this gets back to an earlier point of mine. Antisemitism? It didn't start with the Nazis. It didn't end with the last of them dying. The Nazi hunters were heroes, their actions just, but Jews are still murdered for being Jews. No amount of bringing Nazis and their ilk to justice is going to end the next version of them from cropping up. That's the kind of enemy the Gentry are. They're the bigotry, not the bigots. I'm strong because I'm a proud Jew despite people out there that think I should be dead for it. Going after neo-Nazis or whoever for existing isn't going to make me stronger. Letting them stew in their hatred while I live a good life despite them does.

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              • #37
                Talk about how victims of car crashes or victims of pogroms from defunct regimes need therapy rather than retaliation belies the fact that the keepers are an active force, not an ideology or an event (ok, the Year of Plagues says hi). They aren't the Durance. They aren't a set of hateful beliefs distributed across the planet. They aren't tragic freak accidents that happened for a moment, took lives, and disappeared. They're powerful eldritch invaders that do whatever they want, and one of the things they want is likely to capture you again, and the rules are extremely obfuscatory to what extent, if any, that you can resist them if you're not an iron golem.

                If an implacable maniac is actively after you and he can turn your living room into a volcano, its an entirely different scenario. The story of Moby Dick would be very different if he was an actual dire and eternal threat that will purposefully and maliciously ruin lives for all eternity rather than a big animal who was only a threat because Ahab forced the issue.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Deinos View Post
                  and the rules are extremely obfuscatory to what extent, if any, that you can resist them if you're not an iron golem.
                  Nope. The rules are really clear on how you can fight against them.....


                  Genius templates (for Demon: the Descent)

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
                    Nope. The rules are really clear on how you can fight against them.....
                    When it says that spending a willpower allows you a chance to resist their Hedgeshaping, what is this chance? A roll? Similarly, how many successes does a true fae have to spend when they perform Hedgeshaping and are "automatically successful," since you can allocate as many successes as you want with paradigm shifts?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Deinos View Post
                      They're powerful eldritch invaders that do whatever they want, and one of the things they want is likely to capture you again, and the rules are extremely obfuscatory to what extent, if any, that you can resist them if you're not an iron golem.
                      This line gives me a headache. Let's...break down why it's wrong.

                      1) Keeping current and cutting to the point for people, 2E makes it clear exactly how you to kill them. You get them to break their oaths and whack away at them with their banes and iron. Finding and acquiring their Regalia gives you an edge for this, since you can consult with goblins over them to uncover those oaths and use that to manipulate them from there. If you really want to increase your chances, You get them to break multiple vows, since each time you do so, it removes one of their Regalia from their access. Isolating them in Ironside, in the human world, is also a way to "drown" them to death. You have opportunities to interact with True Fae and arrange for daring confrontations for their Regalia due to the fact that the True Fae have Aspirations that call them into Ironside, where much of their power is diminished. This is a literal template laid out in their section.

                      2) On the off chance you're working with 1E, then it largely depends on what you're working with, but the First Edition Core, Autumn Nightmares, and Equinox Roads all provide ideas if not flat out rules for murdering a True Fae(as is the case in the latter two), and it's not too hard to create an answer that is narratively satisfying for you and your group based on guidelines and those rules when they are not to your liking.

                      3) Multiple of these things want to capture you. Just as there are panopolies who want to manipulate you into signing your name away, eating the fruit, laying down for a while, and generally exploit you and the resources you represent. You gonna fight all of them too? If you wanna burn down the world where they come from, the Bridge-Burners are happy to accept you, but there's a reason those are bad guys. In the mean time, you can fight all you want, and you definitely should, but if you place the emphasis on "I can't rest until these active invaders are dead", you'r going to have a lot of blood on your hands and little clarity of self and world when you die or break.

                      When you put the emphasis on dealing with the invaders, you create for yourself a world where there are nothing but invaders, and wow current social-political conflicts ravaging several nations in the world, what are you doing here.

                      4) I feel like we're backsliding into a conception of the True Fae that hasn't been present since the game first launched, which-hang on a second, I just need to-

                      *screams into a pillow*

                      -which isn't necessarily the case, being that the True Fae aren't actually all that frequent in and of themselves. Like, they aren't the God-Machine, they're not literally in your backyard. To borrow from a conversation where I tackled some of this concept:

                      Originally posted by ArcaneArts
                      See, Changeling is a game where the characters have all sorts of enemies. Other changelings, hobgoblins,fetches, and of course the Strangers. But perhaps moreso than most of the other gamelines, their biggest enemy is themselves-or perhaps it's more accurate to say the damage done to themselves. A lot of Changeling is in the mind of the player characters-the game comes to life much more so in the moment when the character fights to not break teacups because she was always there with them than in the moments of them running from the baying dogs. Hell, it's much more in the moment when a character decides that not every baying dog is the herald of one of them coming. It's on seeing things as they are, which is why Clarity is the morality/integrity stat of the game.

                      Because let's be honest, the Strangers aren't actually that close. Not at all.

                      Returning to the abuse point, Changeling is about the abuser being behind bars, or being in another state. You've escaped, you've gotten away, they don't know where you are, they can't touch you. You should know this. You did it.

                      Yeah, but in the end, you don't really believe that.

                      How could you? This person dominated your life, was around every corner, heard ever whisper. Did you really escape? Can you really ever do it? They'll find you, they know what you would do, and they're just so sneaky and so strong and-do you hear yourself? This is ridiculous.

                      That's the thing, that's the heart of it. In truth, the Strangers are far away and capricious enough to not really come after you. The danger is real, don't get me wrong, but Changeling isn't about constantly being watched. Honestly, you're more likely to be returned because of the other broken people around you than the actual abuser. In Changeling, the real enemy is far away, and the big fear, the fight you have, is with your own nightmares and horrors that they are right there. Perception is a big part of the game-cripes, in the Hedge, a changeling who is worried about being caught is more likely to be caught than a changeling who is not. Changeling is about surviving and recovering from abuse, and while they have many dangers to deal with, it's never so much as what they think is there. A huge amount of Changeling is about the fact that the danger is in their head, almost literally.

                      This is why you have an enemy who wears your face and knows your life better than you do. This is why normal people can't see what you really are unless you screw with their head somehow(ala pledge or whatever). This is why the Hedge and dreams operate so similarly to each other, and why both are psychoactive. This is why the courts shift control of power. This is why everything is off kilter-because the game is about doubt and worry and dealing with the feeling that you're not in control after being abused, and how can you ever have things go back to normal, particularly when the world keeps tumbling around, falling down, falling apart.
                      Admittedly that was from a still 1E world of discussion, but the import stands-Changeling is a game about recovery, and part of what you're recovering from is the need to act out, to fight out, to find your sense of security and stable self in places outside of the desperate, clawing scream that causes violent fight or flight. The True Fae aren't so frequent as to actually need a response-honestly, the majority of people you deal with are either victims who need just as much help as you or people who don't have the context on how they hurt you but lack malevolence, and while some of those people need the sword, the bullet, the fist to the face, a lot more of them need you know where your calm is, how to handle yourself, and where to apply empathy and defense.

                      The True Fae should be fought, but your instinct to think of them as being around every corner needs to be fought more.

                      5) Cthulhu is also a powerful eldritch invader, and yet I don't think anyone is willing to deny that he is also a representation of one's fear of the various aspects of the world borne from his own ignorance. The True Fae may be "people" rather than abstract forces that harm and maim, but their place in the narrative is more important as a symbol for sources of trauma than as that singular entity. Dealing with the metaphor of Changeling, the True Fae represent harm rather than harmers, and it's an important distinction.

                      This is sort of the point of the problem-not so much the action as the attitude behind it in contrast to the theme of the game. No one has ever said that you can't, or shouldn't, punch out Cthulhu (Burroughs himself tried to show Lovecraft with ala Conan the Barbarian), but that's not the point of Changeling. Lovecraft could write any story he wanted where Cthulhu died, but until he came to terms with his own fears, biases, and ignorance, Cthulhu and his ilk would always haunt him. So it is with changelings and their wounds.

                      The main problem of Changeling is not the True Fae.
                      The main problem of Changeling is learning to heal where you were hurt.

                      You don't stop risking Clarity by killing Strangers.


                      Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                      Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Cielle View Post

                        I guess this is a cultural difference that can’t be reconciled.

                        One of the most popular stories my people retell is that of Eichmann’s capture and execution. The whole affair didn’t undo anything the Nazis had done, didn’t save any additional lives, didn’t extract any remorse or admission of wrongdoing from Eichmann before his death. And it carried some costs to get done.

                        Yet we do view it as a triumph, and it did (and does) make people feel better. Eichmann’s sins no longer went unpunished; the goal was complete.

                        Where I’m from, that’s both a satisfying story and an aspirational ideal. Many of our cultural heroes were rescued from death camps, only to then go after the people who put them there. It’s a powerful image, and it’s one that informs our own ideals.

                        As I said, I think this is irreconcilable. I don’t expect you to take the same lessons from our history. But that might illustrate where I’m coming from, and why there’s more to it than “punching someone in the face”.
                        Well, I kinda think that that's exactly what Rose meant in her post. I mean, yeah, the capture of Eichmann and his trial are seen as one of the greatest achievements of Israel (in Israeli eyes, at least), and the survivors did felt fulfilled from the act- and not only them, but the Israeli society in general- but the trauma was not magically healed. The whole "how Israel treats with the Holocaust's and its survivors' trauma" is an whole kind of complicate matter which people wrote books about, so we shouldn't open it in this thread. But the point is that many of the survivors had to live with the trauma, and many were psychologically scarred by it. For example, hording food or in general was a common syndrome that many survivors have/ do suffer from.

                        Eichmann is dead. Some Nazis which took part in the Holocaust have been allegedly killed by the Mossad. Justice was brought- but the trauma remains. The memories remain. The number on their skin remains. Nothing can change it- they can learn to live with it (like my father, who was also survivor. No, I'm not that old, he was old. It's complicated), but it is not going away. Heck, Israel as a nation still suffers the trauma from the Holocaust, and that's without talking about whatever other wars which happened here. The enemy can be brought down, and their defeat is seen is a victory for the survivors, but healing the trauma requires more than that. Like Rose said, the clock would still be six minutes wrong.


                        My Homebrew Signature

                        "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

                        I now blog in here

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Deinos View Post

                          When it says that spending a willpower allows you a chance to resist their Hedgeshaping, what is this chance? A roll? Similarly, how many successes does a true fae have to spend when they perform Hedgeshaping and are "automatically successful," since you can allocate as many successes as you want with paradigm shifts?
                          To me that's more the hedge-shaping rules being vague and weird than anything else. But roll to resist is presumably clash of wills and I don't think you need any successes since auto-succeed.
                          Last edited by milo v3; 08-12-2019, 10:35 PM.


                          Genius templates (for Demon: the Descent)

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                            Well, I kinda think that that's exactly what Rose meant in her post. I mean, yeah, the capture of Eichmann and his trial are seen as one of the greatest achievements of Israel (in Israeli eyes, at least), and the survivors did felt fulfilled from the act- and not only them, but the Israeli society in general- but the trauma was not magically healed.
                            That’s not the meaning I see in her post. The message I’m seeing there is “Why go hunting for your Eichmann (or Joe Chill, or whoever)? It won’t get you anything concrete, so is that going to make you feel even a bit better?” And that question illustrates the cultural gap here, because we both see the answer as obvious and self-evident, yet those answers differ.

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                            • #44
                              All that said, i'd definitely play a changeling with an aspiration of "Get revenge on my keeper" or even " Bring my keeper to justice" (a possible thing to achieve but supremely difficult, which is half the appeal of such a character really).

                              Id go for summer court with strong ties with the autumn court (or vice versa). Maybe a few secret bridge burners or militants contacts.

                              The main ... conflict of playing this character (for me at least) would be are all means worth it for the goal? Would i sacrifice my motley mates if it ends up achieving my aspiration?

                              And of course if or when revenge against the keeper is gotten what next? Do i move on to other keepers? Do i try and find a way to destroy Arcadia or block the way there? Or do i try and teach the skills i learned to other changeling who also want revenge?

                              Anyway thats just one character concept. Im sure there are many more. Lots of things to do with the concept of confronting your keeper in my opinion.


                              Currently running: Scion 2nd Edition. Les Légendes Currently playing: Being a dad for a 2year old daughter and a newborn son.

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