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Does anyone else feel Changelings make most of Beast: the Primordial seem redundant?

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  • Does anyone else feel Changelings make most of Beast: the Primordial seem redundant?

    It seems to me the whole theme of 'fear-eating things that go bump in the night' is covered rather adequately by Darklings and, to a lesser extent, Beasts and Ogres. The only fresh thing BtP brings is the concept of people having their souls replaced by mythical beings, which is quite similar to the old CtL (Beasts remind me a lot of the Thallain), but that's not enough to make it really stand out, imo. What do you think?

  • #2
    Ive almost cannibalized everything that i found interesting in Beast for Changeling.

    The two big things i use are Lair rules for Clearings in the Hedge. (Parts of the hedge that intrudes on ironside)
    And ive redesigned the horros part of Beast as nightmare gaining sentience and taking over their sleepers.


    Completed campaign: Scion 2nd Edition. Les Légendes Currently playing: Being a dad for a 2year old daughter anf a 1 year old son.

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    • #3
      You might want to... I don't know... put this in the Beast forum if you want Beast fans to add more?

      But no, as someone involved in a mixed game with a Beast, and a Lost game right now, they're more than different enough.

      If there's one simple summation of this? Satiety vs. Clarity. Changeling, without massive house rules, isn't going to get the thematic importance of feeding that Beast has. Yes, the Lost can eat emotions and such, but it's an option they can avoid. Beast isn't going to capture the struggle to maintain a grasp of reality in the face of the way Arcadia was permanently warped the sense of self of Lost.

      There's other things, like Changelings starting as victims and the antagonists being their abusers and those that enable them, vs. Beasts having an enemy that's usually created by Beasts or their allies not actually helping make the world a better place with their powers.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Logothétēs View Post
        It seems to me the whole theme of 'fear-eating things that go bump in the night' is covered rather adequately by Darklings and, to a lesser extent, Beasts and Ogres. The only fresh thing BtP brings is the concept of people having their souls replaced by mythical beings, which is quite similar to the old CtL (Beasts remind me a lot of the Thallain), but that's not enough to make it really stand out, imo. What do you think?
        No.

        Causing and creating fear I do feel is a specific-enough niche for CtL that you have to go out of your way to stretch and make sense, and enough that it gets away from the core themes of CtL...to the point that I have to ask if you're trying to substitute the themes of CtL with something else, why are you even playing CtL?

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        • #5
          People say Beasts are like Changelings, but they are more like Goetic Sin Eaters, a goetia replaces the space where your soul used to be instead of a Giest. Both have a creepy little buddy and deep inside of them.

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          • #6
            Changeling does not, as a rule, concern itself too much with controlling the local narrative-space as it relates to its characters' personal occult reputations, nor does the violence of literalized ideological warfare have much in the way of special impact on their place in the world beyond the particulars of personal experience.

            Beast similarly doesn't dedicate too much attention to the process of finding supernatural backing outside the bounds of personal relationships and self-discovery, nor is it especially invested in explicating the details of the metaphysical exchange they make with the subjects of their feeding.

            We had mummies who were vampires years before Mummy: the Curse was announced, but that doesn't make Mummy redundant either.


            Resident Lore-Hound
            Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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            • #7
              I don't think it's all that redundant - its similar, perhaps, but that's intended. One is a monster who embraces itself - the other is... or perhaps better stated, -was- a human who was made into something they never wanted to be, who now has to come to terms with themselves. Beast is a game that is designed to be played in any system in a crossover setting. If it's themes overlap with other games, that's just means it's serving it's purpose well (it fails most when a beast CAN'T find similarities to a venue, in fact).

              I could make a thousand different concepts that could be played in both venues easily, but the themes of each venue would make the end result grossly different, and the story that was told in one would likely look nothing like the story told in another.

              As far as changeling already covering the theme of fear-eating things that go bump in the night, I think that really only applies to the autumn court and even then... I feel like it's more like people at Samhain. Samhain as many probably know was once a festival, where people would light bonfires and wear masks after dark so that the ghosts would think they were fellow spirits.

              The changelings in this scenario are the ones who wear masks. The Beasts are the spirits. Sure you can confuse the two, and both are supposed to be frightening - but at the end of the day, one is hiding, and can choose to take that mask off - the other is always a monster.

              (Yes, a changeling can't choose not to be a changeling, but they -can- choose not to feed on fear.).

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              • #8
                Honestly, I've always felt Beast just didn't belong in the CoD. It feels more like a fan-written book to me. Like it's not really its own idea. I don't feel like it's built out of mythology, literature and cinema the same way that the other games are, or at least not like it's built out of one common vein. Character concepts for Beast that I have seen always seem like ones I feel disappointed were used for Beast and not another character type. Plus the way that it connects to all the other lines feels like a fan-written move, something done to kind of ingratiate the newcomer in a way that never really seemed appropriate to me.

                I feel like Deviant suffers from similar issues, but I don't mind it as much in that case. I think that bothers me less because I can see more cinematic and literary connection to Deviant that feels like it would exist in the CoD. I probably wouldn't have made it a major splat, but that's a smaller issue.
                Last edited by BunniRabbi; 09-27-2019, 12:42 AM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by BunniRabbi View Post
                  Honestly, I've always felt Beast just didn't belong in the CoD. It feels more like a fan-written book to me. Like it's not really its own idea. I don't feel like it's built out of mythology, literature and cinema the same way that the other games are, or at least not like it's built out of one common vein.
                  The corebook was poorly developed. This has been discussed in the appropriate forum, which this thread is not.


                  Resident Lore-Hound
                  Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                  • #10
                    Speaking as someone who was The Changeling Guy and is now one of the Beast Guys* (in the sense of being a local expert on the subject and all of their nuances), Yeah, no. There was a brief period of time where the overlap was more of a thing, but Changeling Second definitively stepped back onto building firmly on First Edition's foundation, and as such Beast has more room to go in it's own direction-which is great, because where that overlap existed for a while honestly serves Beast better than it did Changeling.

                    Satchel already did a decent break down of the big differences, so I'll just reiterate it by saying Finding Your Home and Building Your Legend are significantly different angles to approach for stories that are even otherwise identical, and likewise abuse recovery is a different base metaphor from self-transcendence. There's a lot of other nuances that are different as well, but we could be here all day going into it and I have things to do. Maybe once those are done, I'll apply the essayist to the subject.

                    THere is still some overlap, of course, since Beast should be raw enough to work well in a crossover capacity, but that sort of overlap is the same across the board-Beast has just as much in common with Vampire as it does Changeling**.

                    *Cinder being THE Beast Guy.
                    **If you really wanted me to composite the two games I'd smush together to get the next-best facsimile of Beast, I'd more put money on Werewolf and Mage.
                    Last edited by ArcaneArts; 09-27-2019, 01:55 AM.


                    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                    Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Logothétēs View Post
                      It seems to me the whole theme of 'fear-eating things that go bump in the night' is covered rather adequately by Darklings and, to a lesser extent, Beasts and Ogres. The only fresh thing BtP brings is the concept of people having their souls replaced by mythical beings, which is quite similar to the old CtL (Beasts remind me a lot of the Thallain), but that's not enough to make it really stand out, imo. What do you think?
                      Not really. My best media example for a beast is Showtimes' Dexter. In particular Dexter and the Dark Passenger, how it seems like a living thing that is coiled around him, is him, consumes him it has needs of it's own and it sustains and supports dexter to ensure he can continue to feed it. He tempers the darkness but it is in control. This is the perfect analogy for a beast.

                      Meanwhile a changeling doesn't have the drive, the need, it wants to do these things. I can stop when ever it wants, it can become human again. It doesn't have a voice in its ear howling about how hungry it is, how they need to kill.
                      Both can deal with themes of fear but they do it much differently and with very different attitudes.


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                      • #12
                        I don't think it makes the game redundant but I appreciate where you're coming from.

                        One of the things that drew me to Changeling (first edition) was the idea of being able to make any kind of monster, effectively being able to emulate a vampire, werewolf, wizard (at least theoretically), golem, whatever. And Beast seems to have taken that mantle on its own (though as we see in Deviant and hinted in other things it may be part of a larger shift in concepts), while also grabbing a narrower part of Changeling (Changelings, even in the Autumn court, don't have to harvest fear, they just get a bonus for it) and making it more central.

                        The idea of later games adapting aspects of earlier games is just a part of growth, however, and is inevitable.
                        Last edited by nofather; 09-27-2019, 07:39 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by HaplessWithDice View Post

                          Not really. My best media example for a beast is Showtimes' Dexter. In particular Dexter and the Dark Passenger, how it seems like a living thing that is coiled around him, is him, consumes him it has needs of it's own and it sustains and supports dexter to ensure he can continue to feed it. He tempers the darkness but it is in control. This is the perfect analogy for a beast.
                          Off topic: I read your above post too quickly and assumed that it was about Dexter's Lab, the cartoon. This provided a very interesting take on his lab as a Lair.

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                          • #14
                            I think the main parallels that made me less interested in Beast was less the fear aspect and more the playing with dreams and especially the idea of drawing power from and being trapped with a story. I loved that aspect of changeling and seeing elements of it crop up in Beast did steer me away from that game.

                            Also I was a little weirded out by the parallels with Beast and Changeling. No not that Changeling the other Changeling! Old school Changeling the Dreaming. Both those games featured dream entities living within human hosts who believed they had a kinship with all the other things that go bump in the darkness. I’m not saying it was a huge deal but it definitely contributed to my overall lack of interest. The setting didn’t feel as fresh as it might have.

                            Also, really getting into nitpick territory but I wish they found a name that wasn’t already a splat in changeling.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by nothri View Post
                              I think the main parallels that made me less interested in Beast was less the fear aspect and more the playing with dreams and especially the idea of drawing power from and being trapped with a story. I loved that aspect of changeling and seeing elements of it crop up in Beast did steer me away from that game.

                              Also I was a little weirded out by the parallels with Beast and Changeling. No not that Changeling the other Changeling! Old school Changeling the Dreaming. Both those games featured dream entities living within human hosts who believed they had a kinship with all the other things that go bump in the darkness. I’m not saying it was a huge deal but it definitely contributed to my overall lack of interest. The setting didn’t feel as fresh as it might have.

                              Also, really getting into nitpick territory but I wish they found a name that wasn’t already a splat in changeling.
                              There's a fair amount of overlap one way or another. A properly executed Beast is, in a stupidly simplistic sense, Scion-but-Chronicles-of-Darkness.

                              Albeit, it has a lot of room to be weirder than that, but the general gist is there.


                              Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                              Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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