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Hey writers of ctl 2nd ed and people who know stuff

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  • Hey writers of ctl 2nd ed and people who know stuff

    I have asked similar things to this in the past, but in ctl second ed it is mentioned you can make court bargains with specific entities not just big concepts like destiny, the seasons, vengeance and so on. Is there a hard and fast rule in this regard like. The entity in question must be rank 6 or blood potency 6 for the bargain to be possible or something similar to that?

  • #2
    Generally speaking the practical limit is going to be "can this thing reasonably intercede on behalf of a Court or be considered important enough (prior to or with the help of the Bargain) to help deter the Gentry and/or provide a meaningful basis for new Contracts to be developed?"

    If your patron lacks the power or influence to merit approaching for aid at the outset, both parties are likely to have to do a lot more work to maintain the Bargain — a single solitary vampire from out of town is probably not going to be much help even on a personal level, much less at the institutional scale, and a bunch of changelings using them as a locus to pool favors into to raise their stakes only extends their reach so far for the trouble, so most new Courts are going to be dealing with things that are at least strong enough to count as a major player in a local supernatural society if it's not an abstract concept of comparable importance.

    To provide an example: The Grey City Freehold of the Chicago Loop has two Courts built on different facets of the Big Mysterious Thing haunting the city's dreams. What each gives to their respective patron is less about granular material benefit (though the actions and emotions involved still matter to the Bargain) and more about fixing the Courts in place as recognizable methods of coping and modes of thought in response to their new lease on life.

    The Wind Court's truck in urban legends, applied mystique, dire warnings, and goblin society identifies them as party to the Long Shadow's Bargain despite their patron being virtually unknown outside of Chicago, and the Fire Court's core symbolism of focused accomplishment through resilience, defiance, and deft maneuvering in the face of certain doom mark them as kin to the Bright Face even though all available evidence suggests that it tore itself apart a century ago.

    I can't tell you whether the Kingfisher is the equal of something like Gurdilag or Dzarumazh, but I can say that being an incarnate omen-thing who's held sway over the Loop for most of the century it's had a Court definitely makes messing with it more trouble than most Fae will bother with out of casual interest, and given how Huntsmen tend to skirt the boundaries of freehold protections that tends to be the main thing a Bargain exists to accomplish.
    Last edited by Satchel; 09-30-2019, 06:33 PM.


    Resident Lore-Hound
    Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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    • #3
      Short hand: A entity must be A Big Enough Concern for the Strangers in regards to fucking with it. If it makes the Strangers go "Maaaaybe not (directly)", then it's decently viable.


      Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
      Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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      • #4
        These are good rules of thumb!

        Oak, Ash, and Thorn will have an actual system for making Court Bargains, and it addresses this question there. The bottom line is that you don't need actual traits for the entity, but if you want them, rank 6 ephemerals and similar "story hook" level beings are the right place to start. For Changeling purposes it doesn't really matter if the Vengeance being you make a Bargain with is a spirit, a Goetia, one of the Judges, a Kerberos, or whatever. If you're running crossover, though, or you want traits for another purpose, you'll find more guidelines there.


        Meghan Fitzgerald | Onyx Path freelance writer & developer
        Changeling: The Lost developer
        Mage: The Awakening developer

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Meghan Fitzgerald View Post
          These are good rules of thumb!

          Oak, Ash, and Thorn will have an actual system for making Court Bargains, and it addresses this question there. The bottom line is that you don't need actual traits for the entity, but if you want them, rank 6 ephemerals and similar "story hook" level beings are the right place to start. For Changeling purposes it doesn't really matter if the Vengeance being you make a Bargain with is a spirit, a Goetia, one of the Judges, a Kerberos, or whatever. If you're running crossover, though, or you want traits for another purpose, you'll find more guidelines there.
          Way to go! Now i am going to be sitting around hyped cuz i want to see these cool new rules.

          Random question can it be a corporeal entity like a vampire, horror(as in the general horror movie supernatural with potency from the cofd corebook), werewolf, Beast and so on? or even a hobgoblin with Wyrd 6+?

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          • #6
            Reasonably so.


            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
            Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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            • #7
              Great thread and question, I had been wondering this myself - I'm working on a precolonial southwest court system based on rainy and arid seasons or decadal cycles and this works perfectly.

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              • #8
                Ohhh necrothreading this, but in the name of being topical! Do any of you think a mummy would be a good basis for a court bargain?

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                • #9
                  My usual way to answer that is, is an individual Mummy capable of holding up their end of a Bargain, even in the face of the True Fae?

                  I don't really know Mummy very well, but I would guess probably not—though a Judge could. (Someone who actually does Mummy should feel free to correct me on this though.)

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Draconis View Post
                    My usual way to answer that is, is an individual Mummy capable of holding up their end of a Bargain, even in the face of the True Fae?

                    I don't really know Mummy very well, but I would guess probably not—though a Judge could. (Someone who actually does Mummy should feel free to correct me on this though.)
                    At the start of their Descent? Handily competes. Toward's the end? Not so much.

                    The Sleeping Lions Freehold from I alluded to in the Underhill version was basically a changeling cult for three Arisen, with oaths set in place to make the breaking of the Bulwark awaken the mummies, because three freshly woken Mummies will pretty much knock most Stranger's teeth out no problem. It was also their nuclear option against the Rosiere.


                    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                    Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You can make a lowercase-b bargain with a mummy, but no, you won't get a capital-B Bargain or a Mantle out of it. You need a Judge for that, or something comparable. It's not just about how much power the entity can throw around, it has to be metaphysically significant enough, because the entities aren't out there manually upholding the Bargains. The Wyrd does that.


                      Meghan Fitzgerald | Onyx Path freelance writer & developer
                      Changeling: The Lost developer
                      Mage: The Awakening developer

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Meghan Fitzgerald View Post
                        You can make a lowercase-b bargain with a mummy, but no, you won't get a capital-B Bargain or a Mantle out of it. You need a Judge for that, or something comparable. It's not just about how much power the entity can throw around, it has to be metaphysically significant enough, because the entities aren't out there manually upholding the Bargains. The Wyrd does that.
                        So a regular Mage would be a "no," but what about an entire Consilium? Would a Cabal with a strong Cabal Theme carry enough metaphysical significance? I assume an Archmage would suffice.


                        Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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