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  • so, what is the verdict on 2e?

    Okay. So, Changeling: The Lost second edition has been out for a cool minute now. Although we are still waiting on supplements, there is more than enough material in the corebook for people to have run a low Wyrd campaign. For those of you that have run Changeling: The Lost second edition, what are your opinions on the game? I was an early backer of the Kickstarter and own the game but haven't had the spark to set something up. Let me know what your thoughts are about the game in play and how it compares to the first edition.

    Thanks!

  • #2
    I love it. Hindsight has made for great strides in improvements, such as the divide between Seemings and Kiths, Contracts having Loopholes while Tokens have Catches, Clarity being a health track and not a direct Integrity clone. If anything is missing it's because the book is filled to the brim as it stands.

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    • #3
      Definitely a big improvement.

      The biggest problem I've had so far is that there's still a lot of 1e stuff that hasn't been covered yet, and there's limits on how much my group is comfortable just homebrewing (esp. things like Entitlements which were changed significantly, and the expanded Lords of Summer Court Contracts).

      I'm hoping the KS funded supplements come out soon and address these sorts of things.

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      • #4
        I think it's a major improvement in most areas. It keeps the things that were great about first edition and fixes a lot of places where clunky mechanics tripped up good ideas.

        The one change I don't like is the way it makes clarity damage primarily a function of Wyrd rather than basing it off the severity of the breaking point, but that's an easy thing to hack for my table.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by HelmsDerp View Post
          The one change I don't like is the way it makes clarity damage primarily a function of Wyrd rather than basing it off the severity of the breaking point, but that's an easy thing to hack for my table.
          Important to remember that severe damage is still the nearer analog to dot loss in other games, and the severity of the breaking point increases the likelihood that damage will be severe; unless you're camped out firmly at the bottom of the Wyrd ladder with no complicating Conditions, you're often looking at at least a fifty-fifty chance of marking a box.


          Resident Lore-Hound
          Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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          • #6
            I'm aware of how the mechanics work, thanks. At Wyrd one or two with an attached touchstone you have a 10% or a 30% chance, respectively, of marking one box of damage. No matter how severe the trauma was. As you go up in Wyrd you take (on average) more damage from breaking points of the same severity, but you likely acquire more boxes and more tools for purging them.

            I understand how the system works, and in a game serving as a trauma metaphor I find it's not the best fit for my personal experience of trauma and subsequent learning of resilience and coping mechanisms. That's fine, I love pretty much everything else about second edition and I can tweak this one thing a bit to better resonate with me personally.

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            • #7
              It does have quite a few steps forward, the lack of supplements is just frustrating

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              • #8
                I think at first I had a lot of issues with it, and that was mostly due to being prepared for what was being playtested and getting a different beast entirely. That radical shift caused me to take a lot more time than I usually would to run something. With that said, thematically I think it's an amazing improvement. Mechanically, there have been a lot of issues, especially running a low wyrd game, that I've had to readjust, clarify, or house rule.

                I think I've found the biggest issue that I've run into is the contract section. From what I can tell, you'll need to define how elementals work, as well as how some of their seeming blessings work when learned by members of other seemings. Some contracts you'll need to define a duration because it isn't actually stated. Simply and quick fixes.

                I know in my group we also ended up changing blessing of perfection and might of the terrible brute, mostly due to our own opinions of them. We felt that 'replacing' instead of 'adding' your wyrd to rolls, especially at low wyrd levels, made blessing a terrible contract to have unless the target simply lacked the traits that were being replaced, and we felt that might of the terrible brute was done a disservice when it required a grapple in a game where 'looping' exists as one of the core mechanics (and is, in fact, cheaper than the activation of MotTB)

                Despite that though, and despite the need for those little tweaks, it's great. One of my favorite things that they did was what they did with Onieromancy. I feel like they actually made the art of Onieromancy a lot more important in second edition, which was one of my only issues with the first edition game - that entire section seemed 'added in' and completely unnecessary. I also love how they've worked out the True Fae, and how much more difficult they are to deal with when presented as a threat to the players.

                Oh. And I love the new clarity system. I think it needs a bit more bite to it, but the idea of icons and the fact that there is no limitation on icons deeply appeals to me. I like the idea of traveling through dreams, the hedge, and other locations, collecting the broken pieces of yourself and slowly trying to put yourself back together. I like the idea that over time you could start being affected by everything at low clarity, but could eventually raise yourself to hundreds of clarity points and - really - never have to worry about the most detrimental effects of clarity, but still be 'triggered' by it.

                Honestly, scratch the onieromancy thing, the clarity improvement is my favorite. It feels like it mechanically captures something that is ... really hard to capture and understand for a lot of people.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jakondite View Post
                  Some contracts you'll need to define a duration because it isn't actually stated. Simply and quick fixes.
                  "Unless otherwise noted, Contracts last for the current scene."
                  Last edited by Tessie; 12-09-2019, 07:04 AM.


                  Bloodline: The Stygians
                  Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                  Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jakondite View Post
                    I think I've found the biggest issue that I've run into is the contract section. From what I can tell, you'll need to define how elementals work, as well as how some of their seeming blessings work when learned by members of other seemings.
                    Can you give an example on why the Seeming bonuses of Elementals are so strange comparatively? Aside from choosing an element a Changeling is associated with, I don’t see anything too obscure about them.

                    Originally posted by Jakondite View Post
                    I know in my group we also ended up changing blessing of perfection and might of the terrible brute, mostly due to our own opinions of them. We felt that 'replacing' instead of 'adding' your wyrd to rolls, especially at low wyrd levels, made blessing a terrible contract to have unless the target simply lacked the traits that were being replaced, and we felt that might of the terrible brute was done a disservice when it required a grapple in a game where 'looping' exists as one of the core mechanics (and is, in fact, cheaper than the activation of MotTB)
                    To me, the benefit of Blessing Of Perfection isn’t buffing an item so it’s working much better than before, but so that an object can work even when by all means it shouldn’t. When a piece of equipment is broken, it has an equipment bonus of 0 or even a negative modifier for trying to use it - see the Multitool for something that can allow you to do something, but not do it well. Blessing Of Perfection replaces an object’s equipment bonus, so by doing so you could make a broken object or something that could vaguely perform a task suddenly capable of doing it, and with a positive modifier.

                    Even if you find the interpretation of making a snapped in half cellphone suddenly work absurd, as well as making sticks and stones into building tools, then vehicles are really where Blessing Of Perfection shines. Vehicles by and large have a negative modifier for using them unless you do a lot of modifications - one use of Blessing of Perfection and suddenly the average car is responding to your touch like a dream.

                    That said, this doesn’t quite cover the aspect of granting someone skills, but an easy way to remedy that is to give another Seeming bonus to the contract - perhaps a Darkling one - that allows you to replace a chosen skill for someone either up to your Wyrd or your own skill level, whichever is higher. Either way, the contract is a niche thing, much like all Contracts are (and hence why I hate trying to rank them as “the best” without any qualifiers).

                    As for “looping” making Might Of The Terrible Brute terrible, I’m not quite following. Do you mean portalling, the ability to slip out of any bonds by spending a glamour? Because that requires a glamour per escape, whereas Might Of The Terrible Brute is for a scene, has multiple benefits and works against mortal foes.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                      "Unless otherwise noted, Contracts last for the current scene."

                      ... You know, the funniest thing is that I swear I was looking for something alone those lines when I combed through the rules, and could not find it until now. Thanks :P


                      Originally posted by Taidragon View Post

                      Can you give an example on why the Seeming bonuses of Elementals are so strange comparatively? Aside from choosing an element a Changeling is associated with, I don’t see anything too obscure about them.
                      That pretty much tends to be it. Unless - like with the contracts above - I simply missed a statement somewhere, the exact means to determine your characters element isn't so much 'listed' as 'implied'. For elementals, that can be as simple or complex as you make it. An elemental that is made of fire is obviously a fire elemental. A storm elemental might be wind, water, and lightning. But a lot of their contracts refer to that element, and that implication isn't given to other seemings. For instance, if you were to learn the Seeming Blessing of Elemental Weapon and are, say, a Fairest, you have to determine what 'elemental affinity' means for that character.

                      I do like your interpretation of blessing to make impossible things work for what it is you are trying to do; But yeah it doesn't cover the skill benefit and while it definitely helps the average car I don't know that it'd remove the penalties applied since those are usually situational more than due to the car itself. We actually discussed it and considered that one of the benefits of replacing could, in fact be that it reduced the traits of someone else rather than give them any real benefit (which fits in with changelings being trickster-types); That felt less like what we thought the contract was meant to do tho, so we made that a darkling blessing

                      And yes, I do mean portaling. I dunno why I called it looping, I'm going to blame it on the flu. The above statement by Tessie does, in fact, clear up a lot of confusion on the nature of MotTB with it's lasting a scene (as up till that point we were unsure it if was 2 glamour each time you used that maneuver, or it lasted all of combat and the scene). And yeah, I am aware it functions against a multitude of things which do not have the ability as an innate trait to, in essence, remove it as an option - I just don't personally know that that knowledge makes it worth it when most of what my folks deal with are typically other fae. On the other hand, a lot of powers are designed to be niche and specific to certain situations so *shrugs* something I'll have to run with my team later
                      Last edited by Jakondite; 12-10-2019, 02:54 AM. Reason: Grammar

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                      • #12
                        I loved the Pledge system in first edition precisely for how open ended and creative it were.

                        Never undertood the complains about "free lunches" and powergaming, as if a GM cannot rule out a Pledge without risks ("I swear over every sanction not to paint my house purple") or find ways to put a player between two oaths (ex: a Knight of Summer from Miami when his pledged motley chooses to oppose his liege").

                        Frankly, I find the current mechanics of Sealing, Oaths, etc.. too weak to be interesting.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jakondite View Post
                          That pretty much tends to be it. Unless - like with the contracts above - I simply missed a statement somewhere, the exact means to determine your characters element isn't so much 'listed' as 'implied'. For elementals, that can be as simple or complex as you make it. An elemental that is made of fire is obviously a fire elemental. A storm elemental might be wind, water, and lightning. But a lot of their contracts refer to that element, and that implication isn't given to other seemings. For instance, if you were to learn the Seeming Blessing of Elemental Weapon and are, say, a Fairest, you have to determine what 'elemental affinity' means for that character.
                          An Elemental has 1 element, so a Storm would have to decide if it is more "air" (which I rule as 'wind', since air is too common compared to other elements), or more electricity, etc... I don't see much complex about that.

                          In order to learn a Seeming benefit that isn't your own Seeming, you need to find a teacher. So then with Elementals, that makes it easy, right? The version you get is the same one your teacher has and of his element, why would an Elemental who controls water teach you a bonus that lets you control earth better?

                          I do like your interpretation of blessing to make impossible things work for what it is you are trying to do; But yeah it doesn't cover the skill benefit and while it definitely helps the average car I don't know that it'd remove the penalties applied since those are usually situational more than due to the car itself. We actually discussed it and considered that one of the benefits of replacing could, in fact be that it reduced the traits of someone else rather than give them any real benefit (which fits in with changelings being trickster-types); That felt less like what we thought the contract was meant to do tho, so we made that a darkling blessing
                          It's not meant to buff things that are already good, why is it necessary for it to do so? The "race to huge dicepools" is the wort part of the system already, honestly. This Contract gives you more versatility, allowing you to find tools anywhere AND allowing you to turn a penalty for having no training in a skill into a bonus instead. Instead of someone having -2 to Computer rolls due to having 0 skill, you can make it 1 skill even at Wyrd 1... a 3 dice bonus.

                          Fairest get some more options on what skills can be affected, too.

                          And yes, I do mean portaling. I dunno why I called it looping, I'm going to blame it on the flu. The above statement by Tessie does, in fact, clear up a lot of confusion on the nature of MotTB with it's lasting a scene (as up till that point we were unsure it if was 2 glamour each time you used that maneuver, or it lasted all of combat and the scene). And yeah, I am aware it functions against a multitude of things which do not have the ability as an innate trait to, in essence, remove it as an option - I just don't personally know that that knowledge makes it worth it when most of what my folks deal with are typically other fae. On the other hand, a lot of powers are designed to be niche and specific to certain situations so *shrugs* something I'll have to run with my team later
                          Note that only other Changelings can portal... not hobgoblins, not Hunters, not even True Fae.


                          Homebrew
                          - CtL 2E: Seeming Benefits for every Contract

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Unahim View Post

                            An Elemental has 1 element, so a Storm would have to decide if it is more "air" (which I rule as 'wind', since air is too common compared to other elements), or more electricity, etc... I don't see much complex about that.

                            In order to learn a Seeming benefit that isn't your own Seeming, you need to find a teacher. So then with Elementals, that makes it easy, right? The version you get is the same one your teacher has and of his element, why would an Elemental who controls water teach you a bonus that lets you control earth better?
                            A valid interpretation, and one that I may well consider using - but as far as I'm aware it's an interpretation on one side (that could be argued at a table and therefore needs to be expressed), and a house rule which can raise its own questions on the other - which is my point. Just a couple thing's in the game a person playing may need to clear up. Not big things by any stretch of the imagination - like I said, simple and quick fixes.


                            Originally posted by Unahim View Post
                            It's not meant to buff things that are already good, why is it necessary for it to do so? The "race to huge dicepools" is the wort part of the system already, honestly. This Contract gives you more versatility, allowing you to find tools anywhere AND allowing you to turn a penalty for having no training in a skill into a bonus instead. Instead of someone having -2 to Computer rolls due to having 0 skill, you can make it 1 skill even at Wyrd 1... a 3 dice bonus.

                            Fairest get some more options on what skills can be affected, too.
                            While this is certainly a valid outlook, it doesn't so much scream 'blesses any object or person with perfection' as the writeup suggests, so much as 'makes any object or person capable of functioning'.

                            I mean, its not to say that the original couldn't have uses. Tai's interpretation of the multitool seems valid - I'd certainly see a pair of twigs used as a lockpick as a perfect use of 'replacing' rather than enhancing. The skills though seem... niche in this interpretation. Yes, you could give someone with no computers a 4 dice bonus at Wyrd 1 - likely because no one in the group has a computers rating. But this is only useful as long as you keep expending the glamour, or the need for rolls stops. Fairest skills aside, almost all of those skills rarely account for a brief, one roll incident. Could see it being useful if you need to talk someone through CPR and emergency first aid - but it still seems to come down to less a blessing of 'perfection' and more a blessing of immediate 'function'. Just my thoughts tho

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jakondite View Post
                              I do like your interpretation of blessing to make impossible things work for what it is you are trying to do; But yeah it doesn't cover the skill benefit and while it definitely helps the average car I don't know that it'd remove the penalties applied since those are usually situational more than due to the car itself. We actually discussed it and considered that one of the benefits of replacing could, in fact be that it reduced the traits of someone else rather than give them any real benefit (which fits in with changelings being trickster-types); That felt less like what we thought the contract was meant to do tho, so we made that a darkling blessing
                              Glad you liked my interpretation of the contract. The reason I think that it’d replace the penalty the vehicle gives is because, otherwise, vehicles don’t really have an equipment bonus listed - just a penalty for using them in instances that require a Drive roll (which, themselves, are only when it’s required for dramatic or dangerous instances of play). You can turn it into a positive by modifying the car, but it does depend on if this counts as an equipment bonus or not. Ultimately it does depend on how you roll it at the table.

                              Also, I was off base about broken equipment having an equipment modifier of 0 for using them - that’s on the basis of fixing equipment, not using it.

                              Originally posted by Unahim View Post
                              In order to learn a Seeming benefit that isn't your own Seeming, you need to find a teacher. So then with Elementals, that makes it easy, right? The version you get is the same one your teacher has and of his element, why would an Elemental who controls water teach you a bonus that lets you control earth better?
                              If the student Changeling is associated with earth, no matter what Seeming they are, then they would gain a bonus for controlling earth because there is little if anything associating them with water. The contracts in question always refer to the associated element of the user, so it stands to reason that if a Changeling teaches another how to tap into an aspect of a contract then the way that aspect manifests depends on the end user, not the teacher. If not, then it severely impacts the theme that every contract manifests uniquely for each Changeling, their own aesthetics determining how it appears, and severely limits how a character is expressed.

                              I get this can lead to choice paralysis, but I don’t get why a Changeling learning a contract/Seeming bonus from another should limit them to only manifesting it like their teacher. That’s like saying that a student being taught how to make sculptures will only replicate what their teacher makes - some will only make similar works, yes, but not the vast majority.
                              Last edited by Taidragon; 12-12-2019, 05:48 AM.

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