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  • Firefly Night
    started a topic so, what is the verdict on 2e?

    so, what is the verdict on 2e?

    Okay. So, Changeling: The Lost second edition has been out for a cool minute now. Although we are still waiting on supplements, there is more than enough material in the corebook for people to have run a low Wyrd campaign. For those of you that have run Changeling: The Lost second edition, what are your opinions on the game? I was an early backer of the Kickstarter and own the game but haven't had the spark to set something up. Let me know what your thoughts are about the game in play and how it compares to the first edition.

    Thanks!

  • Unahim
    replied
    Won't quote the entire post as it'd get too long, but:

    Originally posted by Van Owen View Post
    What I don't like the about CtL in general is that I have to start out with an escaped human slave, and the main change to the Lesser Fae, from Changelings, is they would be characters who were born as Fae from the very beginning, with no human baggage or background to have to bother with.
    That's absolutely fair. I just want to make clear to those reading this thread that CtL 2E is absolutely a great game for playing Changelings, by pointing out that your main problem with it is that it assumes you want to play a Changeling, when you personally don't. :P
    There's nothing wrong with wanting to play different types of Fae, but it's not strange that the splat doesn't cater to it in its opening book.

    To me, the human baggage is the best part. So much so that I like to play a session with all the characters still human, before zipping to the point where they are Changelings. It immediately gives them so much motivation... they want to check up on all the NPCs from their human days, pick up threads that were brutally severed by their abduction..; all good stuff! But your mileage may vary. ^^

    will consider them carefully as I keep reading more 2E material
    On that note, I happened to read something in Oak, Ash and Thorn that made me remember this conversation. On p. 53 it talks about an item called a Nameless mask, and in the description mentions:
    The cleverest of those servants use their
    Nameless Masks to escape back through the Hedge, although
    some of their fellow freeholders argue that their
    Keepers might have let them escape on purpose.
    It was already insinuated in the main book in some places, but this is another outright proof that Keepers letting Changelings merely think they escaped on their own is still very much a thing.
    Last edited by Unahim; 10-25-2020, 10:01 AM.

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  • Shinsoryuu
    replied
    Long-time lurker and first-time poster here. First Edition Changeling the Lost was what drew me into what would become Chronicles of Darkness, so second edition Changeling the Lost was something I was looking forward to for a long time. After getting it, I think it's a major improvement over the first edition. My brief thoughts are:
    • I like how Kiths work in 2E because I love conceptualizing what a kith might look like for different Seemings.
    • I really like the Huntsmen as antagonists, and I like the version we ended up getting in the corebook over the "spirits of the hunt that hate you and kill people every time one appears in Ironside" from the previews. I like the idea of the True Fae tearing out their hearts and you as changelings helping one find their heart and free them as a possible plot point.
    • The Fairest being retooled more as leaders and Ogres as defenders is something I really like.
    • I really dig the Contracts being themed after Regalia.
    • I liked the original idea of True Fae being statless antagonists mentioned in an early preview, so I kind of wish the final product didn't have a "Here's how to stat the True Fae" section. I still tend to go for statless True Fae for story purposes.
    • The Goblin Debt mechanic is really intriguing and has a lot of story potential.
    • Still wish Honshu was one of the settings in the corebook, since I really liked the Japan Lost preview put out by Olivia Hill.
    Overall, Changeling the Lost still remains my favorite book in the Chronicles of Darkness, and I look forward to seeing what future books come out.
    Last edited by Shinsoryuu; 05-08-2021, 03:58 PM.

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  • Van Owen
    replied
    Originally posted by Unahim View Post
    Also, again here, your idea of "Lesser Fae" trying to improve your stature to eventually become Gentry... How are those motivations unknowable? That's just bold-faced ambition, entirely human, entirely understandable.
    Touting the desire for "unknowable" Gentry but then wanting to play them is a contradictio in terminis, since the very act of playing them means you'll have to agree on what kind of campaign it'll be, what the goals and means of the settings are, etc, and you as player are not going to come anywhere near being able to portray an unknowable being. Only an all-powerful narrator can really try to pull off an "unknowable" being, and that's mostly by just letting them do whatever, and then later making the reality of the story line up with what they're doing. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyaC7NmPsc0
    I won't say that you don't make some good points, and will consider them carefully as I keep reading more 2E material. As for my concept of the Lesser Fae, they would be more human, or at least more relatable, in contrast to the Gentry. They don't need to be unknowable powerful entities, right out of the box, rather that is something to aspire to.

    What I don't like the about CtL in general is that I have to start out with an escaped human slave, and the main change to the Lesser Fae, from Changelings, is they would be characters who were born as Fae from the very beginning, with no human baggage or background to have to bother with. Frankly, I found all that stuff annoying when playing CtL, as opposed to what I really wanted to do. My Gentry character, The Honeysuckle Prince, started out as Tristan, a Fairest Flowering-Muse. I played him long and well as a Changeling, until he reached Wyrd 10, and became his present self. Later on, using the rules from Equinox Road, I created him as a 3 Title Gentry, (because it appeared a 3 Title specimen represented a "typical" member of the True Fae) and through gameplay over the years, (with the same ST, I'll add) I earned two more, bringing him to his present 5.

    Playing one of the True Fae, is quite a challenge, but I enjoy it. A bit of personal information about me, is I'm an Aspie, and in particular, I struggle with empathy, and forming connections with others, that aren't based on purely mutual interests, and the way the True Fae in 1E were described made them more relatable to me, than the Changelings, and this is before you add in my long standing interest in the historic folklore, (though that angle is better represented by the hobgoblins than the Gentry, but the hobgoblins weren't well developed in 1E) which drives my desire for a particular kind of game. The main problem with the Gentry, is the sheer power level involved, which makes a party of them effectively unplayable, so they wouldn't work in anything like a typical game. With the RP my Gentry is played in, it's just me and my partner, the ST, and he's just one character we switch back and forth in between. Even then, a lot of the RP is either social in nature, or he's used to set up storylines for the other characters, which often involves getting into lots of trouble and then figuring out ways to bribe or manipulate them into dealing with the mess he's managed to make. It's a lot of fun, but again, wouldn't work for a more typical game, with multiple players, which is why I've been slowly developing the idea of the Lesser Fae as an alternative to CtL, which I think could very well.

    Under my vision, the Lesser Fae, would be true creatures of the night, on par with Vampires and Werewolves, not pitiful bands of half-breed, broken, PTSD ridden former slaves hiding under their blankets at night, secretly afraid that Master is going to come looking for them. They'd be the redcaps, goblins, satyrs and sidhe of legend, and beyond those would be the enigmatic Peerage, comprised of the Greater Fae, which would function much like the Gentry, though probably reduced to something like a playable level, for when the characters do eventually get to that point. Tentatively, Courts would be classical Seelie and Unseelie, with the main difference being just how monstrous its members habitually behave, and their desired end results, though neither would be particularly "good" or "nice". While I admit, this would remove much of the internal horror of CtL, there would be plenty of the external sorts to replace it--Just imagine biker gangs of Unseelie Redcaps, with packs of Barghests in tow. It would a mixture of the Byzantine politics and social play of Vampire, the imagery and wonder of Changeling, and perhaps the territoriality of Werewolf, or the paranoia of Demon, particularly if there is some sort of Cold War state between the two courts. For the tone, I'd try to bring back some of that edgy stylism I miss from early OWoD--Hopefully without creating something that looks like a lost Black Dog publication in the process, but nothing one Ever does is going to appeal to everyone, anyway.

    Edit: I may explore this idea further in a separate post.
    Last edited by Van Owen; 10-17-2020, 05:04 PM.

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  • Vintervalpen
    replied
    I think 2.0 is a vast improvement from 1.0, although it's sort of tricky playing the new game and forgetting the old one exists. I just assume a lot of things are still the same even when the book hasn't explicitly said they are (I very much assumed changelings could not produce children in 2.0 until I came to these forums and saw this is no longer the case).

    Hedgespinning is amazing. I really like Hedge Ghosts. Oaths lasting forever is really neat. Just a lot of improvements on an already excellent game.

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  • Unahim
    replied
    At some level, it just doesn't make sense for the central beings of a gameline that is based on oaths and Contracts to not be able to be pinned down on some level. Their power is based on Contracts, so somewhere, at some level, there's going to be a Contract you can try to unravel to fight them. At some point they made a deal and you can't un-make it for the sake of being "oh-so-random".

    That does not make the beings themselves more predictable, though. It just gives them weaknesses. And weaknesses are interesting, Superman is interesting to many people not because he's ultra strong, but because of the weaknesses he still has that the stories focus around. Without weaknesses, interaction with the True Fae is essentially limited to just a toss up, as you can never build on anything anyway. Without Superman's weaknesses (mostly his morals) stories with him would be limited to bullets bouncing off his chest, gg, end of story. Yawn.

    I'll admit though, I've seen some responses to the threads here recently, and I kinda feel a lot of this is fetishism based around True-Fae-as-self-insert rather than True-Fae-as-vehicle-for-story-and-drama. Once we start discussing what kind of uber armour our True Fae characters walk around in to become completely immune to the bane of iron we're really diverging far from their expected role in the story. Which is actually a pretty weird argument when you're also trying to sell that 1E True Fae are more "chaotic and unpredictable", because a True Fae making a conscious, thought-through decision to procure, maintain and wear (at all times) a suit of anti-iron super armour shows a sort of consistency of reasoning that surely goes against that. Where at any point does this True Fae's name or title come into it? It also shows a distinct lack of the arrogance True Fae are often portrayed as having. Why does this all-powerful being constantly live in fear of a bit of iron, to the point of cramping his style with bulky armour, announcing his lack of self-confidence to the world?

    I actually find 1E Gentry too human, the weirdness of the Name + Titles thing in 2E makes them much more alien.

    So I kinda feel that this argument started at "I'm pre-disposed to disliking this edition since I perceive it as de-powering my own True Fae character." and then goes from there to purposefully find fault with the rest of the text. I don't mind someone disliking an edition over one element, if a True Fae being a certain level of perceived strength to you is a make-or-break thing then fair enough, but there's no reason to try to justify it beyond that by making unsupported claims by the rest of the text. :P

    Just for instance:
    Originally posted by Van Owen View Post
    Mostly what annoys me is the lore and lighter tone of 2E compared to the original.
    This is just flat-out wrong, imo.

    First of all, in 1E yo actually could not be turned into a Changeling without making at least one voluntary Contract:
    In truth, however, a human’s fate is forever changed no
    matter whether she chooses to bargain with the Fae or to die
    by refusing. Those who have accepted a Contract with the
    True Fae (and through them, to Faerie itself) are changed
    by the process — they become changelings.
    From the very start in 1E, you at least had some agency. Refusing to make a bargain in the fae realm, trying to escape right away if you could, was always an option. The entire first chapter on in the 1E core book actually doesn't even really mention bad things happening during the Durance at all, and in fact it's mostly only referenced in Seemings rather than in any talk about the Durance as a concept, and most often in the book it refers to some "trauma" but no details.

    In 2E you are actually given no choice, you're just grabbed and bent to the True Fae's purpose, that's it. They're far scarier in that way. Descriptions of the Durance as a concept are more explicit about it being essentially slavery and generally a bad time, too.

    The first Durance example in 1E:
    A story tells of a man who, on the final leg of a long journey,
    sheltered from a storm in an empty palace. As he leaves, he
    takes a rose from a garden. The owner of the palace, a faerie in the
    shape of a terrible Beast appears and catches him, and tells him
    he must die. The man begs to live, for he has a daughter whom he
    loves, and the beast demands that the daughter come and stay with
    him. The man agrees, although he has no intention of sending his
    daughter away. When he returns home, he finds that his daughter
    has died. In truth, the Beast has taken her away and left a fake to
    die in her place. The Beast treats the girl well, certainly, but she
    cannot leave. One day, having lost all hope of escape, she
    agrees to become the Beast’s wife. There is no ceremony,
    only an agreement, a veil and a wedding
    night. And on that wedding night, she lays
    with him, and she becomes like him, a
    Beast, forever, her memory and thought
    washed away in the flood of sensation,
    the tyranny of the now.
    Can you honestly say that this is darker, more traumatic, etc than any of the example Durances in 1E? Like the one where you're turned into a monster, hunted, have a trap snap on you, are put in a cage, starved, beaten, whipped, etc? It's obviously not.

    At worst they are pretty much equally grim, 1E and 2E, and at best you could say 2E is actually more grim because you're not given any choice at all.

    Also note how the Beast keeper in the above blurb has clearly understandable motives and actions. Another nail in the coffin of the "True Fae are literally unknowable in 1E" here. This Keeper's actions make a twisted sort of sense.

    Maybe you had particularly grim Durances at your table an thus believed the 1E setting material specifically being more grim, but it really isn't.

    Some of the Changelings in my games get skinned alive, hung up, and as they bleed from every inch in their body, their colours drain out of them to be used to paint the black-and-white realm of their Keeper. And usually it's they themselves who get the honours of doing the painting, painting away their own colours one stroke at a time...
    I'd say that's a pretty damn brutal experience, and nothing in 2E is dissuading me from using these kind of Durances, and nothing in 1E is encouraging me from using these kind of Durances.

    It feels as if the Gentry themselves have been nerfed and limited to a huge degree from 1E to 2E. They went from utterly terrifying and literally "unknowable" in 1E to scary but predictable beings in 2E, who could be destroyed by cleverly unraveling a series of oaths. While this idea was pioneered in 1E, (though strangely enough, in one of the Geist books) it wasn't sure to apply to every Fae. Likewise, Freeholds seem a good deal more powerful and the Seasonal Courts constrain the actions of the Fae to a greater degree. I think all the various changes remove much of the horror aspect of the original, that the ST has to deviate a fair deal from the tone of the published material to restore.
    We've had 2E threads here complaining that fighting back against your captor and eventually defeating them is so hard as to generally be unfeasible and not something any Changeling can really even expect to accomplish, with Freehold or otherwise. You are seriously exaggerating how vulnerable the True Fae are, there might be a way to deal with them, but it's still nigh impossible to achieve.
    Your enemies being so strong that there's pretty much nothing you can do to guard yourself isn't horror, though. The only reaction you can have to that is to stop caring. If there's nothing you can do, may as well live your life and see what happens. In contrast the strict methods the 2E changelings have to try (emphasis) to stay safe impose a sort of state of constant weariness and struggle on them. it lends a certain claustrophobia to the experience, as there's certain lines they can't draw outside without being seriously hampered. This in turn pushes them towards one another, where the real paranoia can bloom.

    So thoroughly, if respectfully, disagree.

    Bear in mind, I'm something of a relic, having cut my teeth playing Black Dog era OWoD, that was chock full of hideous nastiness that didn't try to pull any punches, and that the current game has moved away from that, but I enjoyed that kind of edgy setting that placed so much emphasis on style. When NWoD (1E) came out, I immediately saw the potential of the improved mechanical system, particularly as more sourcebooks were added to it, but largely continued to use the same tone as early edition OWoD had, and 1E CtL made it very easy to do that. CoD, is to my mind, something else entirely, and caters to a different sort of player, which I think is why I largely feel alienated from the current setting. With my current ST, we've been playing together in a homebrew setting for close to a decade now, that while importing some elements from WoD, really isn't that setting. In fact, only Mage and Changeling have been adapted to it, and the lore of Mage has been altered so much, that it bears little resemblance to the original, leaving Changeling as the only thing to survive mostly intact, in its 1E form.
    WoD focuses on the monsters outside of you and often feels a bit like a dark superhero gameline to me, CoD focuses on the monsters inside of you. In a game about trauma, that seems appropriate. CtL strikes a particularly good balance between both for me.

    I started playing CtL,as I've always been interested in the Fae, and the huge body of folklore surrounding them. The thing is, I've always been more interested in playing a character who actually is one, rather than just an escaped slave or pet, which is the problem with CtL as a whole. It does look like it might be easier with the 2E released material to adapt Hobgoblins as player characters, if the ST is willing to toss out the limitations on the amount of time they can spend in the mortal world. There might also be some promise with 2E of completely nuking the lore, and entirely redefining what the Fae are in the setting. What I might do in that instance, is divide the Fae into the Lesser and Greater, with the Gentry occupying the second category. The characters would be lesser sorts who are trying to either improve their own station, eventually becoming one of the Gentry, or deciding that while they're small bit players in Faerie, they're actually pretty awesome compared to your typical mortal, and there is a great deal of power and fun to be found on the other side of the Veil, as they seek to carve out a place Ironside. There is no shortage of other beings in the rest of the WoD to give them ample allies, enemies, or antagonists.
    Changelings are Fae. They are not make-believe fae. And many hobs were once human or other creatures, too. Even the True Fae were originally not existant, but willed themselves into being. There's even ways to play a hob... goblin debt. :P

    Also, again here, your idea of "Lesser Fae" trying to improve your stature to eventually become Gentry... How are those motivations unknowable? That's just bold-faced ambition, entirely human, entirely understandable.
    Touting the desire for "unknowable" Gentry but then wanting to play them is a contradictio in terminis, since the very act of playing them means you'll have to agree on what kind of campaign it'll be, what the goals and means of the settings are, etc, and you as player are not going to come anywhere near being able to portray an unknowable being. Only an all-powerful narrator can really try to pull off an "unknowable" being, and that's mostly by just letting them do whatever, and then later making the reality of the story line up with what they're doing. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyaC7NmPsc0

    It was also implied in 1E that in many instances, the Changeling didn't truly escape on their own, rather was allowed to think that, due to part of the Fae's motivation for making them in the first place.
    This is no different from 2E. True Loyalists, sleeper agents, and unknowing canary-in-the-coal-mine types are released all the time. It's a big reason for paranoia in Freeholds. You never know who really escaped on their own merit.
    There's plenty of examples of True Fae motives in 2E, and the rules certainly don't mandate that each Changeling "escape" is on the level.

    It was also insinuated there were (thankfully very rare) instances of Freeholds managing to piss one off enough that the True Fae itself, and not just one of its Actors, showed up to deal with the problem, resulting in the loss of the entire Freehold and everyone in it.
    Once again no different from 2E. Any Wyrd 5+ Fetch in 2E can potentially directly summon one of the Gentry into the world, and you definitely don't want that to happen.

    So... I'm not going to say your feelings are invalid, they aren't and couldn't be, but your arguments certainly seem to selectively ignore elements of 2E, and reinvent factual elements of 1E based upon your own perception of it rather than what is actually written there.

    In the end your problem with 2E is that it isn't Gentry: the game. But neither is 1E to be fair. You'll have to heavily house rule either to make a fun, believable Gentry game (even with the support in 1E, imo). And it's absolutely fine if you want to do that, but 2E isn't a worse game for not offering it as a baseline feature. :P (Which, indeed 1E did not either.)
    Last edited by Unahim; 10-17-2020, 09:18 AM.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Van Owen View Post
    Generally speaking, I feel the 1E Fae were much more clever, and dangerous because of it, than their 2E counterparts, which are presented as being harder to destroy outright, but also possessing more predictability and each one seems to have been created with a built in roadmap of how to end them--it's just a matter of figuring out their "programming." The way the 2E corebook makes them feel, is like stupidly powerful bots, who are are rather constrained in their actions by the archtype they are built upon, rather than the avatars of eldritch gods they were in the original edition
    This is literally how most godlike supernatural beings work already — as a spirit, Luna is constrained by her nature, but her nature is the origin point for every lunar spirit in existence and the complexities of Shadow-born beings is already such that an ordinary spirit of an ordinary animal becomes cunning enough to outpace human intellect at one Rank above "awake" and inhabits an ecology and legalistic framework that (despite largely corresponding to the natural order of reality) is staggering in the scope of its mysteries and complexity.

    The Fae are constrained by the tools they work with, but the consequences of breaking the agreements that give them their power tend to be solely that they lose those specific powers, and they're explicitly generally clever enough to know when they're making an agreement with consequences. The Old Gods' flaws are exploited through their passions or by outmaneuvering them with bigger sticks in the right places, which is a substantial chunk of ordinary power politics with a different scale and theme.

    Like, I understand the value of mystery, but there's a thick bold line between "this is horrifying because I don't have the context to understand what's going on or stop it from affecting me" and "the gods of an ordered reality run on diegetic Calvinball." I prefer being able to actually build something on the giant pit of chaos these things emerge from.

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  • Van Owen
    replied
    It was also implied in 1E that in many instances, the Changeling didn't truly escape on their own, rather was allowed to think that, due to part of the Fae's motivation for making them in the first place. Escaped Changelings created their own stories and since the Fae was always a part of those, it gained a certain amount of sustenance from activities of their Changeling. Of course, The Hunt, also generated the same kind of sustenance.

    Generally speaking, I feel the 1E Fae were much more clever, and dangerous because of it, than their 2E counterparts, which are presented as being harder to destroy outright, but also possessing more predictability and each one seems to have been created with a built in roadmap of how to end them--it's just a matter of figuring out their "programming." The way the 2E corebook makes them feel, is like stupidly powerful bots, who are are rather constrained in their actions by the archtype they are built upon, rather than the avatars of eldritch gods they were in the original edition. I always saw them as being almost Lovecraftian cosmic horrors, and so alien that trying to guess the individual motivations or actions of a specific Gentry was at best, a crapshoot, with the dice loaded not in your favor.

    It was also insinuated there were (thankfully very rare) instances of Freeholds managing to piss one off enough that the True Fae itself, and not just one of its Actors, showed up to deal with the problem, resulting in the loss of the entire Freehold and everyone in it.
    Last edited by Van Owen; 10-16-2020, 03:16 AM.

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  • Van Owen
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    It was literally laid out explicitly in Equinox Road. It's one of the reasons still-captive changelings are afraid to leave — the Gentry may be mercurial and alien, but they're personalities built on patterns you can work around even if those patterns have gotten well and truly into your head. Better the Lord or Lady you know.

    The bad-acid-trip nightmare-logic aspects of Lost's Fae have always owed a substantial chunk of their horror to the confounding effects of psychoreactive regions on observer-side presentation combined with the fact that their place in the cosmology as gods means most bets are off without sustained observation — in either edition, Clarity being imperiled is in some respects the horror of Mage's Quiescence turned up to eleven.
    I can agree with that, at least in principle and that Changelings are among one of the few beings able to have the "luxury" of such sustained scrutiny, but bear in mind it was also stated in 1E, that frequently, their Keeper only showed them what they wanted them to see, meaning one could never completely rely on the value of those observations. The other problem is that how much of the Durance Changelings actually recalled was a function of their Wyrd rating. This bit one of my characters in the ass, rather hard, thanks to the Dark Secret Flaw. Erich was a member of the German nobility who was taken as he lie dying under his horse in 1914, to fight a war for a member of the Fae known as The General. He did some unsavory things to survive, including serving as the equivalent of a commissar for the Fae, after becoming a favorite of the Fae's "Sister." The Army was demobilized after the war, which had lasted nearly a century; was won. Said demobilization meant being dumped into The Hedge. Erich didn't recall the nature of all his service, and he'd only become a commissar about half way through it. Unfortunately, some of the other Changelings who ended up emerging in the same area did, having had far shorter Durances, and their testimony made his position in the Freehold almost untenable, and nearly started a conflict between the Spring and Summer Courts. Fortunately, he was welcomed back to his family estate by his twin sister, who had been turned into a Vampire during his absence. The pair had been planning on running away together, before the war, having been involved in a less than sibling appropriate relationship, but he quickly found out this was a case of "Out of the frying pan, into the fire," sort of instance, as his twin was dealing with an attempted takeover by a powerful coterie of Vampires and had a Uratha problem on top of it, as they'd laid claim to the forest on the family lands. To make matters worse, a faction of the Summer Court was planning on dealing with him, without anyone being the wiser...

    Clarity Loss can be terrifying. Tristan, the Changeling (Fairest Flowering-Muse) precursor to my present Fae character of the same name, encountered this when the romance novelist he was engaged to was killed in a car accident. This immediately sent him from Clarity 5 to 3, dropping him into a dark a pit it took a rather long time to claw his way back out of again. While he eventually recovered mechanically, he never did emotionally, and he'd spend the rest of his days as a Changeling trying to figure out some way of bringing her back, perhaps with the right Contract or Pledge or Artifact. In the end, this quest for knowledge and power set him on the road to becoming one of the Gentry. Knowing what was going to happen, he attempted to use a combination of Talecrafting and a Hedge artifact to force his future Fae self to take up the quest, but the Apotheosised being that emerged as the Honeysuckle Prince, would not be so easily bound.
    Last edited by Van Owen; 10-16-2020, 02:39 AM.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Van Owen View Post
    They went from utterly terrifying and literally "unknowable" in 1E to scary but predictable beings in 2E, who could be destroyed by cleverly unraveling a series of oaths. While this idea was pioneered in 1E, (though strangely enough, in one of the Geist books) it wasn't sure to apply to every Fae.
    It was literally laid out explicitly in Equinox Road. It's one of the reasons still-captive changelings are afraid to leave — the Gentry may be mercurial and alien, but they're personalities built on patterns you can work around even if those patterns have gotten well and truly into your head. Better the Lord or Lady you know.

    The bad-acid-trip nightmare-logic aspects of Lost's Fae have always owed a substantial chunk of their horror to the confounding effects of psychoreactive regions on observer-side presentation combined with the fact that their place in the cosmology as gods means most bets are off without sustained observation — in either edition, Clarity being imperiled is in some respects the horror of Mage's Quiescence turned up to eleven.

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  • Van Owen
    replied
    Hopefully, I'm not committing some form of thread necromancy here, but if so, bear with me as I'm new to the forums. While I have not explored all of it, 2E has its pros and cons. I still play some characters who are based on 1E, and will be sticking with it, though I am mining 2E for good ideas that can be adapted and will continue doing so. Mostly what annoys me is the lore and lighter tone of 2E compared to the original, particularly as my main character associated with CtL, is actually one of the Gentry.

    Flat out, I preferred the darker, more traumatic tone that 1E took. To me, understanding just how dark, twisted, and traumatic the Durance was for the character, is the key to understanding Clarity and pretty much everything else connected to the Changeling condition, and it feels that 2E soft sells this, to the detriment of the setting. It feels as if the Gentry themselves have been nerfed and limited to a huge degree from 1E to 2E. They went from utterly terrifying and literally "unknowable" in 1E to scary but predictable beings in 2E, who could be destroyed by cleverly unraveling a series of oaths. While this idea was pioneered in 1E, (though strangely enough, in one of the Geist books) it wasn't sure to apply to every Fae. Likewise, Freeholds seem a good deal more powerful and the Seasonal Courts constrain the actions of the Fae to a greater degree. I think all the various changes remove much of the horror aspect of the original, that the ST has to deviate a fair deal from the tone of the published material to restore.

    Bear in mind, I'm something of a relic, having cut my teeth playing Black Dog era OWoD, that was chock full of hideous nastiness that didn't try to pull any punches, and that the current game has moved away from that, but I enjoyed that kind of edgy setting that placed so much emphasis on style. When NWoD (1E) came out, I immediately saw the potential of the improved mechanical system, particularly as more sourcebooks were added to it, but largely continued to use the same tone as early edition OWoD had, and 1E CtL made it very easy to do that. CoD, is to my mind, something else entirely, and caters to a different sort of player, which I think is why I largely feel alienated from the current setting. With my current ST, we've been playing together in a homebrew setting for close to a decade now, that while importing some elements from WoD, really isn't that setting. In fact, only Mage and Changeling have been adapted to it, and the lore of Mage has been altered so much, that it bears little resemblance to the original, leaving Changeling as the only thing to survive mostly intact, in its 1E form.

    I started playing CtL,as I've always been interested in the Fae, and the huge body of folklore surrounding them. The thing is, I've always been more interested in playing a character who actually is one, rather than just an escaped slave or pet, which is the problem with CtL as a whole. It does look like it might be easier with the 2E released material to adapt Hobgoblins as player characters, if the ST is willing to toss out the limitations on the amount of time they can spend in the mortal world. There might also be some promise with 2E of completely nuking the lore, and entirely redefining what the Fae are in the setting. What I might do in that instance, is divide the Fae into the Lesser and Greater, with the Gentry occupying the second category. The characters would be lesser sorts who are trying to either improve their own station, eventually becoming one of the Gentry, or deciding that while they're small bit players in Faerie, they're actually pretty awesome compared to your typical mortal, and there is a great deal of power and fun to be found on the other side of the Veil, as they seek to carve out a place Ironside. There is no shortage of other beings in the rest of the WoD to give them ample allies, enemies, or antagonists.

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  • Unahim
    replied
    Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
    The Verdict is... Guilty of 7 counts of fun, 21 counts of innovation, 5 counts of stories telling, and over 300 counts of awesome.
    Can agree to this. ^^

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  • Omegaphallic
    replied
    The Verdict is... Guilty of 7 counts of fun, 21 counts of innovation, 5 counts of stories telling, and over 300 counts of awesome.

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  • Taidragon
    replied
    Apologies for derailing the topic here, and now re-railing the topic:

    As of now the only real drawback I feel for the system is that there just isn’t enough content as of yet. We have the rules to make new Kiths, for example, but with only twelve in the core book it’s a little hard to scale them properly. However, it’s still early in the game’s lifespan, and we are going to get new content soon to expand what we have.

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  • gscrap
    replied
    My reading of the rules has that each time a person takes a Sword Contract, they choose the element that Contract applies to-- this would apply equally to Elementals and non-Elementals. That's certainly how I'd adjudicate it.

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