Sorcerer’s Rebuke - What happens when a splat hits zero power points?

[tomewilson]

For 2 glamour, a Changeling can use Sorcerer’s Rebuke to drain other splats of their power source (e.g., Glamour, Vitae, Essence, Plasm, etc.).

While it requires a touch, the roll is [Manipulation + Occult + Mantle] – [Resolve] with the target losing points equal to the Changeling's successes.

It's a gutsy move to be that close to a target, so what happens when a splat is drained of their last power point?

• Vampire
• Werewolf
• Mage
• Changeling
• Materialized Ghost
• Promethean
• Sin Eater
• Beast

[Satchel]

Vampires will need to feed before they next enter daysleep to most consistently avoid falling into torpor as they fail to spent the Vitae they don't have on waking up.

Werewolves can't supercharge their regeneration without entering the Gauru form and courting Death Rage.

Mages can't use most of their Attainments or mitigate Paradox beyond the use of dedicated tools.

Changelings take the Deprived Condition and can't derive sustenance from food or drink until they regain some Glamour.

Materialized ghosts will need to regain a point of Essence before their Manifestation runs out or they'll fall to dormancy and be out of commission until their Anchors restore them.

Prometheans can't negate damage as they take it, charge their Alembics, or use most of their other active powers .

Sin-Eaters can't use their Haunts without drawing on a Key to get enough Plasm to pay the price.

I'm reasonably certain Satiety counts more as an Integrity stat than a fuel stat for this purpose, but hitting Satiety 0 means they can't use Nightmares or spend Satiety in their Lair to heal damage, in addition to drawing attention from Heroes at a more accelerated rate and lacking the resources to use the higher-spec versions of most of their optional powers in additional cutting off the viability of many of their universal abilities; getting at least one point back is harder than usual, barring the direct option of killing a Hero.

This strikes me as more of a general forum question, or at least something that could have gone in the Simple Question thread.

[tomewilson]

Thank you, Satchel. Much appreciated. I considered asking in the general room but since this was a Changeling power, I thought I'd stop here first.

When I read it, it just sounded so overpowered. It says contest with "Resolve" instead of "Resolve + Supernatural Advantage," so a good roll could possibly empty some splats.

Then I realized this type of attack would trigger a hunger frenzy in most vampires (with you as the closest target), so I started wondering if other splats reacted similarly.

[KieranMullen]

For 2 glamour, a Changeling can use Sorcerer’s Rebuke to drain other splats of their power source (e.g., Glamour, Vitae, Essence, Plasm, etc.).

While it requires a touch, the roll is [Manipulation + Occult + Mantle] – [Resolve] with the target losing points equal to the Changeling's successes.

It's a gutsy move to be that close to a target, so what happens when a splat is drained of their last power point?

You didn't mention Demons. When a Demon hits zero Aether, they can still use any of their Embeds. They can also fully transform into their Demon form, and start sucking up Aether at their Primum level. However, no Exploits that use Aether, nor partial transformation. No Aetheric Resonance (smell out Aether) either.

[tomewilson]

It does say it may trigger the "Cowed" condition with enough successes but I can't seem to find that one in Changeling or the GMC.

[Satchel]

It does say it may trigger the "Cowed" condition with enough successes but I can't seem to find that one in Changeling or the GMC.

Page 335. It's in the ToC.

[tomewilson]

Thanks again. I'm reading it on my phone so the layout isn't ideal and it wasn't coming up in the Search.

[Tessie]

When I read it, it just sounded so overpowered. It says contest with "Resolve" instead of "Resolve + Supernatural Advantage," so a good roll could possibly empty some splats.

It's resisted, not contested. It's resisted because the end result of the roll is dependent on the number of successes (in this case how much of a fuel trait you remove). A resisted power never includes Supernatural Tolerance because getting to remove one die is roughly three times as powerful as rolling that die to match successes. Adding Supernatural Tolerance to your resistance would make resisted rolls way harder than contested rolls in addition to being dependent on the number of successes rolled.

[Unahim]

It's resisted, not contested. It's resisted because the end result of the roll is dependent on the number of successes (in this case how much of a fuel trait you remove). A resisted power never includes Supernatural Tolerance because getting to remove one die is roughly three times as powerful as rolling that die to match successes. Adding Supernatural Tolerance to your resistance would make resisted rolls way harder than contested rolls in addition to being dependent on the number of successes rolled.

Is it?
If you roll and cancel out successes, each dice you roll to contest has roughly a 0.33 chance (simplified, including 10-Again) to succeed, so for each dice in your pool you'd have 0.33 successes removed from the target.
If you remove dice from the target, each dice he'd roll still has a 0.33 chance to succeed, so you... still remove 0.33 successes from the target per point, right?

I don't think there's a difference. ^^

I believe the reason is just simply that most powers where successes matter are balanced to not be too bad at low number of successes, while other powers go from "0 to 100" on just 1 net success and can just end a situation before it even starts (like a vampire's Dominate).
Also so you wouldn't push them into Chance Dice territory and risk Dramatic Failure too easily.

[Taidragon]

Is it?
If you roll and cancel out successes, each dice you roll to contest has roughly a 0.33 chance (simplified, including 10-Again) to succeed, so for each dice in your pool you'd have 0.33 successes removed from the target.
If you remove dice from the target, each dice he'd roll still has a 0.33 chance to succeed, so you... still remove 0.33 successes from the target per point, right?

I don't think there's a difference. ^^

I believe the reason is just simply that most powers where successes matter are balanced to not be too bad at low number of successes, while other powers go from "0 to 100" on just 1 net success and can just end a situation before it even starts (like a vampire's Dominate).
Also so you wouldn't push them into Chance Dice territory and risk Dramatic Failure too easily.

It’s literally the difference between using your Defence to subtract from an attacker’s dice pool versus using your own Defence as a dice pool against attacks. Rest assured that Resisted rolls in this matter are better for attack pools like these than contested, because it’s a more consistent means of regulating against attacks without outright making an attack wasted effort. It’s also far few dice rolls in scenarios where you are resisting harm, like, say, having precious supernatural energies leeched from you and giving you a massive disadvantage against a foe.

[Tessie]

Is it?
If you roll and cancel out successes, each dice you roll to contest has roughly a 0.33 chance (simplified, including 10-Again) to succeed, so for each dice in your pool you'd have 0.33 successes removed from the target.
If you remove dice from the target, each dice he'd roll still has a 0.33 chance to succeed, so you... still remove 0.33 successes from the target per point, right?

I don't think there's a difference. ^^

I believe the reason is just simply that most powers where successes matter are balanced to not be too bad at low number of successes, while other powers go from "0 to 100" on just 1 net success and can just end a situation before it even starts (like a vampire's Dominate).
Also so you wouldn't push them into Chance Dice territory and risk Dramatic Failure too easily.

You are indeed correct. My bad.

[Unahim]

It’s literally the difference between using your Defence to subtract from an attacker’s dice pool versus using your own Defence as a dice pool against attacks. Rest assured that Resisted rolls in this matter are better for attack pools like these than contested, because it’s a more consistent means of regulating against attacks without outright making an attack wasted effort. It’s also far few dice rolls in scenarios where you are resisting harm, like, say, having precious supernatural energies leeched from you and giving you a massive disadvantage against a foe.

It's better point for point because it also decreases chances of exceptional success and raises chances of dramatic failure.
There is less variance than with Contested rolls, but whether or not that's better for you actually depends on whether the situation already favours you or not. If you're the top dog, you want reliable results, since you're slated to be the victor if everything plays out "as it should". If you're the underdog, you want high variance, since it gives you a better shot at getting a "freak success" and suddenly causing a blowout that should never have happened. ^^
Even though the average results for both methods are identical.

But you cannot say they are blanket "better" aside from the exceptional success/dramatic failure part, it all depends on relative skill levels! The weak want chaos so that the strong hopefully just trip over their feet, break their neck and die! The strong know they'll easily kill the weak so they prefer more predictable results. ^^

You also get 1 more dice for using willpower on a roll than on a resistance trait. Making Contested rolls with Willpower statistically better on average in terms of amount of successes subtracted than Resisted ones. Which evens out the "reliability" argument quite a bit.

Ultimately you won't see much statistical difference between the two at all.