Do you use the Hedge Navigation rules? They seem unwieldy as hell

[Wade L]

I kind of understand what they were going for trying to use the Chase system but...it just seems unwieldy. A lot of rolls. Especially if there's multiple characters all travelling together, where some people can get Lost but others finding their way - so then presumably the people who are doing better on their rolls also get lost because they're trying to stick with their fellows... I find the chase rules are a bit clunky just to start with, but in Hedge navigation the whole thing just becomes...well, it doesn't so much add "excitement and drama" as just become a mess of dice and weird mechanics.

Anyways - do you use the Hedge Navigation rules as is out of the book? Or do you just run it as, y'know, a scene? Or do you have some other system you use instead?

[Vintervalpen]

My main issue with the system it was written as something that is used every time you want to go from point A to point B in the Hedge. Ain't nobody got time for that.

[Tessie]

No. Because they're too unwieldy as well as too abstract. Extended actions are never particularly fun because it's a lot of rolling. During regular chase scenes it's at least broken up by a sense of pressure and it's easy to narrate what is going on, but the Hedge "chasing" you is so abstract it becomes impossible to narrate. On top of this, it's supposed to be used every single time the characters navigate the Hedge. In the last two sessions we've had that would've meant eight chases and that is simply too much to keep it interesting and varied even if it wasn't a pain to narrate them.

Our ST has said that he would use Hedge chases if we were actually chased in the Hedge or is searching for stuff like Icons deep in the Thorns, with potentially some modifications, but generally we just narrate any navigation on Trods or landmarks visible from Trods without using dice, and roll once if we're navigating the Thorns.


Unfortunately Onyx Path does seem to have a preference for heavily mechanised subsystems that are supposed to resolve and describe pretty specific situations (ironically the base chase system is one of the most widely applicable of those, but Hedge chases are not) that are simply not fun to use because they're too unwieldy, too specific and/or too abstract, like investigating a procedurally generated mystery, how to persuade someone to do something for you one time (honestly not that bad for these systems), have a verbal smackdown as a vampire, have a Mexican standoff in DE2, how to investigate a magical mystery as a mage, or have a non-violent duel as a mage, etc.

Fortunately they're almost all optional, and those that aren't are generally easily ignored.

[Master Aquatosic]

hmmm. I guess the answer is simply "just run encounters between point A and B" and "roll survival checks not to get lost". But is that really the alternative? It's not a bad alternative, but I want to know what you do instead of Hedge Chase rules. I personally like the idea of the Hedge as shifting and dangerous and I want to keep that feeling somehow. However, you all make good points about the current system.

[Wade L]

hmmm. I guess the answer is simply "just run encounters between point A and B" and "roll survival checks not to get lost". But is that really the alternative? It's not a bad alternative, but I want to know what you do instead of Hedge Chase rules. I personally like the idea of the Hedge as shifting and dangerous and I want to keep that feeling somehow. However, you all make good points about the current system.

I think the response in this thread is telling me it is time to put my homebrew hat on and see if I can come up with something interesting.

[Master Aquatosic]

I think the response in this thread is telling me it is time to put my homebrew hat on and see if I can come up with something interesting.

Make me a new thread for it so we can help, why don't you

[Wade L]

Make me a new thread for it so we can help, why don't you

Not sure if you've seen the thread yet, but it is here: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...vigation-rules

[Unahim]

I think so too, and despite long arguments on the Simply Questions/Answers thread, haven't really changed my mind on it. ^^ It's fine for one time, but for every navigation? Too much...

On top of that dreamweaving and hedgespinning feel a bit heavy too, so it's a mix of two heavy systems at the same time then. ^^

[Wade L]

I think so too, and despite long arguments on the Simply Questions/Answers thread, haven't really changed my mind on it. ^^ It's fine for one time, but for every navigation? Too much...

On top of that dreamweaving and hedgespinning feel a bit heavy too, so it's a mix of two heavy systems at the same time then. ^^

Part of it is it kinda feels like Chronicles of Darkness just got heavier in general in the 2nd edition.

[Firefly Night]

Part of it is it kinda feels like Chronicles of Darkness just got heavier in general in the 2nd edition.

chronicles of darkness is very crunchy. it has a system for crunchy "social" combat, ffs.

i am intrigued by the new approach to off-trodding that CtL 2e presents ... i am not sure if i would it use to resolve every instance of hedge travel with the new Chase rules but on first read it seemed like a novel approach to a problem that i never really had.

[Satchel]

i am intrigued by the new approach to off-trodding that CtL 2e presents ... i am not sure if i would it use to resolve every instance of hedge travel with the new Chase rules but on first read it seemed like a novel approach to a problem that i never really had.

It does present a very solid reason to use Fae Mounts and/or take on Goblin Debt at the lower end of the Wyrd scale, which I think is neat.

[Firefly Night]

It does present a very solid reason to use Fae Mounts and/or take on Goblin Debt at the lower end of the Wyrd scale, which I think is neat.

thematically, it really plays up the harried vibe presented in the atmosphere prose in a solid mechanical way. it also presents a very real motivation for the Lost to work at maintaining trods, since stepping off of one forces the wayward into a horrible, anxiety fueled narrative filled with the triggering sense of pursuit that changelings spend their entire lives trying to avoid.

while it is very crunchy, i think of the system more like way the wyld was presented in the fair folk supplements for exalted... where distance was measured not by km/miles, but rather by waypoints (places where "things happen") and journeys (the hand wavey montage part in between the places where things happen). i imagine that this system playing out in a similar way, with "places where things happen" being the result of the Hedge Chase mechanic.

[Satchel]

thematically, it really plays up the harried vibe presented in the atmosphere prose in a solid mechanical way. it also presents a very real motivation for the Lost to work at maintaining trods, since stepping off of one forces the wayward into a horrible, anxiety fueled narrative filled with the triggering sense of pursuit that changelings spend their entire lives trying to avoid.

Like, the main thing that we're missing guidance from is 1e's distinction between a trod and simply being "on the path" — the navigation and Hedgespinning rules very much incentivize mystically weaker/less self-assured characters to stick to the main roads, keep moving, and not talk to the locals if they can avoid it; all that is the "risk" in "risk versus reward" for the borderland.

And upon reflection, that lack of distinction between path and trod is covered by the less solid distinction between path and Thorns: roads that aren't pinned down are ever-shifting, and lingering too long in transit risks getting walled into bad terrain with no better option but to push through the danger zone. It's a bad idea to try and brave the untamed Hedge without expertise, emotional support, supernatural might, and/or a lot of patience for probable detour or alternate destinations — not for nothing do the Mage crossover mechanics give the place substantial resonance with the Abyss.

[Xenesis]

Unfortunately Onyx Path does seem to have a preference for heavily mechanised subsystems that are supposed to resolve and describe pretty specific situations (ironically the base chase system is one of the most widely applicable of those, but Hedge chases are not) that are simply not fun to use because they're too unwieldy, too specific and/or too abstract, like investigating a procedurally generated mystery, how to persuade someone to do something for you one time (honestly not that bad for these systems), have a verbal smackdown as a vampire, have a Mexican standoff in DE2, how to investigate a magical mystery as a mage, or have a non-violent duel as a mage, etc.

Fortunately they're almost all optional, and those that aren't are generally easily ignored.

It's unfortunate because as a whole the core rules mechanics of CoD are really quite straightforward (in that I can explain them to people who've never used the system before generally in about two minutes and they can start playing at cons), but all the bolted on stuff is layers of complexity that...doesn't add much in a way that could usually just be resolved by the core rules.

So yeah, put me down as another ST that doesn't use the hedge chase rules because of needless complexity.

[Satchel]

Important contextual follow-up for those calling needless complexity:

How many combat encounters/violent incidents do your games typically employ the full violence systems for?