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Does Anyone Else Have a Problem With Court Creation Penalties

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  • Does Anyone Else Have a Problem With Court Creation Penalties

    They... admittedly throw me off. Like a frailty is one thing. But one failure, and the penalty is your Needle and Thread change - which seems to translate to a total change in personality. It's sufficient that it turns me off of ever bother to do it IC. Sure, it makes sense that a big endeavor like that would be 'costly', but it feels like when something that big is forced onto your character, they're not the character you designed, like they're someone else entirely with different motivations. Who wants to RP that?

  • #2
    I mostly just don't think we needed mechanical rules defining the specifics of the process of sealing the Bargain. The process would probably feel appropriate just as "each time you perform a suitably impressive or legendary task on behalf of your new patron you may create the next dot of the new Mantle," with neither any punishment for stalling out the process nor any progression towards the building Mantle without successful labors.

    Definitely doesn't need a Condition. Conditions are being really overused in ways that overlook what they're good at.

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    • #3
      To repeat what I said the last time this came up:

      This is an entirely elective decision that most characters will never even begin upon.

      Your Needle and Thread are not your character's entire personality any more than their oaths or Aspirations are.

      Frailties are less negotiable than Anchors as impositions upon your character for making a rapid-paced deal with a god or a force of nature to keep you safe from the alien overlords you're on the lam from.

      Even before all of this, nothing prevents you from pursuing a Bargain with an entity that aligns with your original Needle and Thread to minimize the impact of the first missed task.


      Resident Lore-Hound
      Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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      • #4
        I feel like this is a non-issue for the sort of people looking to play as a Court Founder to begin with. Either you were going to play as someone who wasn't going to have a problem becoming more like your bargaining entity, or you were set up for the tragedy of loss of identity.


        Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
        Feminine pronouns, please.

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        • #5
          I disagree. Needle is your self-image, what you see yourself as, and the role you play. Thread is what keeps you going. Both are major aspects of someone's personality. Would you rather have an aspect of your personality changed, or have to try to hop on one foot for ten seconds whenever you heard a bell ring? Which is the bigger imposition.

          As for sort of people looking to play a court founder? -raises hand- The plot might be interesting, but having my character messed with like that is a total non-starter. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a cost, but brainwashing shouldn't be the first mistake. A character is designed to interact with the world in a certain way, and is a product of what they've been through. Part of the fun is roleplaying that. Having that just spontaneously change for unnatural reasons takes a good bit of the fun out of it.
          Last edited by Tzauri; 11-03-2020, 06:43 PM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Tzauri View Post
            As for sort of people looking to play a court founder? -raises hand-
            THis presupposes that you represent the audience the section as written was designed for.

            My postulate is that you're an outlier, which would reasonably explain why you're the only person I've seen complain about it.

            EDIT: I mean, bringing this back around to the title, time and tide really is just pointing at it being your problem. Not all things are for all people.
            Last edited by ArcaneArts; 11-03-2020, 08:10 PM.


            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
            Feminine pronouns, please.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Tzauri View Post
              I disagree. Needle is your self-image, what you see yourself as, and the role you play. Thread is what keeps you going. Both are major aspects of someone's personality.
              Both are duplicated in impact by the emotional context of a sworn oath, the breaking of which has identical basic consequences to backing out of the pursuit this effect stems from.

              Would you rather have an aspect of your personality changed, or have to try to hop on one foot for ten seconds whenever you heard a bell ring? Which is the bigger imposition.
              The one that physically harms me or makes me actively worse at everything I do until I adhere to its compulsion. Easily. I chose to swear a Bargain with this thing. I can probably put two and two together with all the stories about Court Founders in common circulation having focal characters that are conveniently aligned with the thing they curried favor from.

              You can reconstruct your self-identity — that's Changeling 101. It is substantially harder to undo Contractual Magical Bullshit Stipulations that actively hamper your normal functioning.

              I'm not saying there shouldn't be a cost, but brainwashing shouldn't be the first mistake.
              I understand that you may think "change your Anchors" being something Shift Conditions can accomplish means changing your Anchors is brainwashing, but setting aside the fact that Werewolf and Mage have mechanics that mess with your Anchors and Aspirations as both core parts of their gameplay and particularly major acts of magic, I must again repeat: Your Needle and Thread are not irreplaceable elements of your character, and the cost of swearing a Bargain with an entity and faltering without outright becoming an oathbreaker starts with "you become a little bit more the sort of person that would make a Bargain with your patron."
              Last edited by Satchel; 11-03-2020, 09:35 PM. Reason: Formatting.


              Resident Lore-Hound
              Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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